Jbh, thats double speak. How is it not keeping you from believing when He doesn't permit you to believe?
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How do we define what is good and evil?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Jbh, thats double speak. How is it not keeping you from believing when He doesn't permit you to believe?
Were not discussing judicial hardening, that is a diversion away from the topic. Lets discuss the topic and if you want to start a thread on thatt, feel free.
Who caused man to be unable to be willing to believe? Did Adam cause this? How did Adam do this?
It is amazing, Calvinists do not believe man has the ability to change his nature so that he can believe, but he believes man had the ability to change his nature so that he cannot believe.
Jesus, nor the scriptures say this;
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Jesus said we can either make ourselves good or corrupt, he did not say we are unable to do that which is good.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
The scriptures do not teach that we are enslaved to a sin nature and must always necessarily sin as Calvinism teaches.
If man can choose either good or evil, then he is without excuse. But if man is born with a sin nature through no personal choice or fault of his own, and is completely enslaved by this nature so that he cannot choose what is good, then he has a perfect excuse for not believeing.
But once again, this is not what the scriptures teach.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
The scriptures do not teach we are enslaved to a sin nature, the scriptures teach that we are able to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Total Inability is a false and unscriptural doctrine.
It is amazing, Calvinists do not believe man has the ability to change his nature so that he can believe, but he believes man had the ability to change his nature so that he cannot believe.
Jesus, nor the scriptures say this;
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Jesus said we can either make ourselves good or corrupt, he did not say we are unable to do that which is good.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
The scriptures do not teach that we are enslaved to a sin nature and must always necessarily sin as Calvinism teaches.
If man can choose either good or evil, then he is without excuse. But if man is born with a sin nature through no personal choice or fault of his own, and is completely enslaved by this nature so that he cannot choose what is good, then he has a perfect excuse for not believeing.
But once again, this is not what the scriptures teach.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
The scriptures do not teach we are enslaved to a sin nature, the scriptures teach that we are able to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Total Inability is a false and unscriptural doctrine.
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Yeah, Skandelon, don't you know that its a strawman if the conclusion contradicts his system. :smilewinkgrin:
The point is that God blinds sovereignly and He saves sovereingly. If one bothers you so should the other because He does both according to His will. Some people (Jews) will go to hell because God blinded them from the gospel. If you are able to accept that, why are you not able to accept that God un-blinds some?
Skandelon was unwilling to deal with this question also.
Who said I was unwilling to deal with it? The sun melts butter and hardens clay. The hardened exchanged the truth for a lie...its quite elementary. The source never changes...but thats neither here nor there concerning this particular thread and Skans point of man in your system being with an excellent excuse...even plugged into your understanding of hardening it works. Why blame me for for not coming when you hardened my heart?
Then why can you not accept that God saves those He chooses just as He hardens those He chooses?
God unblinds all of us. If not for God's word, we would all be sitting in darkness.
Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
The Word of God is what illuminates a man's mind and enables him to believe. Without the word of God, you would not know of Jesus and therefore could not place your faith in him.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Paul here asks how any man can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him? The obvious answer is that they cannot. Therefore, faith comes by hearing (our part) and hearing by the word of God (God's part).
God has showed his grace that saves to ALL men.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
God has revealed to all men how to be saved, but some men reject the truth. God is very patient and longsuffering, but even God has his limits. At some point he will remove his grace and allow that man to remain in darkness.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Note that in all of these verses God gives a REASON for giving up on these people, it is not unconditional whatsoever.
So, God shows his grace that brings salvation to all men. But if a person will not hear and repent, at some point God will remove his grace.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
God does not give men over to be reprobates without just cause. He does not condemn men uncondtionally as Calvinism teaches.
Us = Christians
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Paul is speaking to Christians. When he says "all", he is clearly referring to all in the church. Especially considering in the same sentence he says "us" referring to believers, and then going on to tell "us" how we should be behaving as Christians.
The whole context is believers.
Yes Amy, the word of God teaches US, but it does not teach THEM. But that is their fault, they do not listen or learn from God. It is just like school, why does one student make straight A's while another student fails? Isn't it because the A student pays attention and studies while the student who fails cuts up in class and never does his homework?
Titus 2:11 says the grace that brings salvation has "appeared" to ALL MEN. Some choose to listen and learn, others refuse to listen and learn.
Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
God does not say men are enslaved to do only evil, he said they do not CHOOSE the fear of the Lord.
And notice in verse 23 that it is those that repent when they hear God's reproof that he pours his Spirit upon, and then he gives them spiritual understanding. But that they could understand his reproof before receiveing the Spirit is shown, otherwise they could not turn at God's reproof, and AFTERWARD God pours his Spirit on them.
Total Inability is false and unscriptural. Man can learn from God if he chooses to do so, and if a man turns at God's reproof, then afterward God will pour his Spirit upon them, in fact, it is the condition required.
It's because earthly desires are different than spiritual desires. Earthly desires come from the flesh, but spiritual desires come from God (not ourselves).
Amy, I just showed you God's word. It said God called them, but they refused. He stretched out his hands to them. It says they did not CHOOSE to fear the Lord.
You don't get it, there is no choice in Total Inability. This doctrine is false and unsciptural. I already showed you several verses that shows man has the ability to make a choice for good or evil.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
If Total Inability were true, then this verse would be a lie. No child (or adult) could ever choose the good, and they could not refuse evil either.
So, who do you believe, the scriptures, or Calvinism?
All men are responsible to keep the ten commandments 100% perfectly.
Being conceived in Sin...and dead in Adam....they cannot...they are bound in sin.
All men are responsible to repent and believe the gospel. They do not want to.they are unwilling to, because sin reigns in their heart,and their minds have been corrupted......they are fully responsible....they do not want to.
If God saves one or two out of all mankind...it is only by His mercy..
That he saves a multitude is His perogative. he draws that multitude with cords of covenant love. Again...that is His perogative.
No unsaved person will have a valid excuse...not one. Some do not seem to trust that the God of all the earth will do right...but He will:thumbsup:
His drawing ALL MEN...is His drawing all His elect from all the world....not from Israel only....
Being conceived in Sin...and dead in Adam....they cannot...they are bound in sin.
All men are responsible to repent and believe the gospel. They do not want to.they are unwilling to, because sin reigns in their heart,and their minds have been corrupted......they are fully responsible....they do not want to.
If God saves one or two out of all mankind...it is only by His mercy..
That he saves a multitude is His perogative. he draws that multitude with cords of covenant love. Again...that is His perogative.
No unsaved person will have a valid excuse...not one. Some do not seem to trust that the God of all the earth will do right...but He will:thumbsup:
His drawing ALL MEN...is His drawing all His elect from all the world....not from Israel only....
I never said that God doesn't permit anyone to believe. In fact I said the opposite...
That would be the same as not permitting....
Well stated Icon!
No, it's only a "straw man" if one misrepresents another persons view. There is a huge difference of the Bible contradicting my view than stories that don't accurately reflect my view. As I stated earlier, I'm only concerned with what the Bible says. I'm fine if someone disagrees with me as long as the Bible is the center of the belief. Stories can be helpful to understand biblical truths, but they cannot replace biblical truth. The story Webdog gave me for instance was flawed because it was the fiance that prevented the father from going to the wedding. I do not believe that God prevents anyone from coming to him.
btw, we need to remember we are all on the same side. I was rude to you yesterday and for that I apologize. We(and that includes me) tend to set each other up as enemies.
Because I don't view hardening in the same manner you now do. The Bible shows us He hardens through circumstances.
I'll give you an example of this. For valentines day I was taking my daughter to a father- dance. The week leading up to it, when she would get mad at me she would say "fine, I'm not taking you to the dance now" (as if a 4 year old decides that
). I would subtly say to her, "that's ok, Eliza (little red haired girl in her pre-school) might want to go". She would get jealous, and quickly recant.Now, is this not how God has dealt with the jews? I believe it is. I could have sovereignly forced her to change her stance and her attitude, but I wanted her to learn a lesson.
So God doesn't prvent them from coming...He just does not enable them with His grace? How is that different?
And has He not placed His law in their heart, the desire for eternal life and even placed them uniquely in history and geographically to "seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him although He is not far from any of us"? How did they reject the spiritual truth for a lie?
Major difference. The will of the people. God preventing would mean that some people would want to come, but God prevents them. I do not hold to that. God not enabling them is simply that. They are not willing and God leaves them not willing.
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