Featured How do we define what is good and evil?

Maybe Wesley quoted him and didn't give him credit, because I see that quote attributed to Wesley all over the web???

 

I know you don't believe that your view gives men an excuse. And I know you don't believe the bible teaches that, but my argument is that your view DOES indeed give men an excuse and I've clearly laid out the argument as to why that is:

Question: "Why didn't you have faith?"
Answer: "You never granted me faith."

That is an excuse that ONLY your view affords.

I have also had personal experience with this as I have counseled troubled teens who have been exposed to Calvinism who think they couldn't be the elect of God due to their pasts and even present struggles. When they come from a broken home where parents have rejected them they often assume God has rejected them too. I had one kid who had been at the Village church (reformed) who told me that he can't believe and follow Christ because He doesn't think God elected him. What better excuse is there for someone in rebellion than, "God hasn't chosen me?" Even if they are wrong about that feeling the very fact that they think this shows the error of such dogma.

 

No excuse for what? His choice? Or for being condemned? Or both?

 

You added this after I responded...

What is there to refute? It supports exactly what I've been saying. Look at why these people are 'without excuse.' They have 'clearly perceived' God's revelation according to this verse, some translations say they have "clearly seen" and "understood." Yet, Calvinism teaches that men are born dead, like a corpse, and can't really see, hear or understand God's revelations. Can the lost CLEARLY PERCEIVE the revelation of God or not? If they can then they are without excuse, if they can't (which is the heart of Calvinism's Total Depravity) then they have a perfect excuse.

I agree, but do Calvinists really believe they 'knew EXACTLY what he said to them' because I thought you believe such things had to be 'spiritually discerned' first (ref. 1 Cor 2:14)??? Which is it?

 

Whoa, there is a difference. I believe faith cometh by hearing. So, the gospel is the means by which faith comes, thus EVERYONE who hears the appeal of God to be reconciled to Him has been granted the ability to respond. I don't believe God has preselected a relatively few people who are granted faith irresistibly to the neglect of all the rest, as your view does.

What's hyper? Its a response of a kid who was exposed to normal mainstream Calvinism. He may not be responding correctly, but that is not the point. The point is that the concept that God hasn't chosen to save most of mankind IS used as an excuse for rebellion by some.

Why don't they desire to do so? Answer that one question and this discussion will be over and you know it.

I'm waiting.

 

An excuse for not answering this???

 

"Narrow is the road and few are those who find it..." Relative to the number lost, a "FEW" are saved, period. No one should object to that...

Right, relative to those lost, there are a few saved. Just so you know, "Relative" is another word for "compared to"

I understand that you believe that God hasn't granted most of humanity faith. That is the point.

Question: "Why didn't you believe?"
Answer: "Because you didn't grant me faith."

Why don't they have a desire to come? If I were to drug my child from the first day he was born with a medication that made him not able to willingly obey me, and then punished him for not being willing to obey me...How is that not my fault? And how could you claim that my child wouldn't have a perfect excuse for his disobedience?

Even if the child deserved the drug (i.e. through the sin of a representative who fell) that doesn't answer the problem regarding an appeal to reconciled from that fall.

You aren't understanding my argument. I'm not saying you believe people want to be saved but can't. I'm arguing against your belief that people CAN'T WANT TO due to an inborn nature given to them by God. You have tried to suggest it wasn't 'from God' by blaming it on Adam, but you continue to avoid the obvious fact that God is the one who decided the punishment for the fall.

And there is the perfect excuse. They didn't (couldn't) really understand. I say they 'clearly saw and understood' but still freely chose to rebel thus making them all the more guilty and deserving of their punishment...they are 'without excuse' because they DID understand.

Context brother. Read the verses surrounding this one:

13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

He is clearly speaking of the Israelites being hardened to the revelation of God and the need for them to turn to Christ and find freedom.

It's called "debate," and this is a debate forum. If you don't want to have a cordial exchange of views (debate), then I suggest you not post your opinions on a debate forum. You are typically very fair and cordial so please don't let some of the others rub off on you. We may have some misunderstandings in our discussions and of course I'm going to press you on issues I think are incorrect (that is the point after all), but it doesn't need to become personal or nasty.

 

Guy, do you have an excuse for not answering the last post and the question posed to you?

 

Oh, and jhb, you still haven't told us why a lost person doesn't desire to come to Christ. More specifically, why can't he become willing? What is preventing him from being willing?