How do we define what is good and evil?

[Skandelon]

I'm speaking of stuff like "excuses." If you want to discuss a particular passage, let's do it.

Look at my discourse with Guy above where we discuss the passages dealing with man's being without excuse and maybe that will give us a starting point?

When we try to look at stuff like man has an excuse, we don't get anywhere.

No, we don't get anywhere when you refuse to answer the questions posed to you because you realize they implicate your system. Why can't lost men desire to come to Christ? Still waiting for an answer to that. That answer is the EXCUSE you don't want to deal with.

Man can always come up with an excuse.

I agree, so why give them another one by teaching that God doesn't really choose to grant all that is needed for whosoever to come to him and be saved? Why allow them to use the excuse that God may not salvifically love them or long for them to come?

You attempted to put an "excuse" to my view and I showed you that it wasn't valid.

That's debatable.

If you think ignoring questions and obvious implications is a show of an invalid argument then you don't know much about debate...unless you are a politician of course.

 

[jbh28]

Question: "Why didn't you believe?"
Answer: "Because you didn't grant me faith."

Which is not an excuse. Get to the Bible. Don't beat the dead horse. Man can always come up with an excuse.

Context brother. Read the verses surrounding this one:

13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

He is clearly speaking of the Israelites being hardened to the revelation of God and the need for them to turn to Christ and find freedom.

In chapter 3, Paul referenced Moses. But he is not talking about that in chapter 4. He is looking at his own situation. Satan had blinded their eyes to the gospel. The freedom is only in the Spirit. No unsaved person has this freedom because he doesn't have the Spirit. He is not just talking about Israelites.

 

[jbh28]

Look at my discourse with Guy above where we discuss the passages dealing with man's being without excuse and maybe that will give us a starting point?

No, we don't get anywhere when you refuse to answer the questions posed to you because you realize they implicate your system. Why can't lost men desire to come to Christ? Still waiting for an answer to that. That answer is the EXCUSE you don't want to deal with.

I've answered it many times.

I agree, so why give them another one by teaching that God doesn't really choose to grant all that is needed for whosoever to come to him and be saved? Why allow them to use the excuse that God may not salvifically love them or long for them to come?
That's debatable.

not really. man doesn't have an excuse. Romans 1:20. Man can always come up with an excuse of why he wasn't saved. He only heard the gospel once. He was raised in an atheist home. Man could say "why didn't' you just save me since the blood of Christ was sufficient. Anyway you look at it, man can always come up with an excuse. I'm more concerned with teaching the Bible than keeping man from having excuses.

If you think ignoring questions and obvious implications is a show of an invalid argument then you don't know much about debate...unless you are a politician of course.

I haven't ignored anything. don't pretend that I'm ignoring. your grasping now. If you want to discuss a subject on the Bible, let me know what and the passage. Trying to keep man from having excuses is not profitable because man can always come up with an excuse.

 

[jbh28]

btw, a good passage would be the last part of I Cor 2 and the beginning of chapter 3.

 

[Aaron]

Oh, and jhb, you still haven't told us why a lost person doesn't desire to come to Christ. More specifically, why can't he become willing? What is preventing him from being willing?

And while you're at it jbh, tell Scandal why a fly doesn't desire not to land on dog poop. What is preventing the fly from not loving poop?

 

[jbh28]

And while you're at it jbh, tell Scandal why a fly doesn't desire not to land on dog poop. What is preventing the fly from not loving poop?

Well, his name is Skandelon. No need for name calling.

Every single decision we ever make is based on our desires. We always choose what we desire the most within the circumstances that are available to us.

You are offered two steaks for dinner. One is a fresh steak that is cooked exactly like you want it. The other is old and spoiled. Which one will you choose? Of course you will choose the fresh one. You don't choose the spoiled one because you have no desire to choose that one. That's the same with God. To the unsaved person, Spiritual things are like a old spoiled steak. He has no desire for it, thus he doesn't choose it.

 

[Amy.G]

To the unsaved person, Spiritual things are like a old spoiled steak. He has no desire for it, thus he doesn't choose it.

That is so true. I don't know exactly how God does it. Everyone wants to say God does it this way, regeneration before faith, faith before regeneration, this before that...bla bla bla....but the truth (as I see it) is that nobody can say for sure HOW God does it, but He does something to a person's heart before they believe and receive Christ. Don't we all have a testimony to this regarding our own salvation? People talked to me about Jesus and salvation for years and it went in one ear and out the other. Then one day, I believed. I can't explain it other than God did it. The scripture are clear that people are chosen for salvation. They are also clear that we are required to have faith. How do I reconcile that? I don't. I can't. But it's the truth because God says so.

 

[jbh28]

That is so true. I don't know exactly how God does it. Everyone wants to say God does it this way, regeneration before faith, faith before regeneration, this before that...bla bla bla....but the truth (as I see it) is that nobody can say for sure HOW God does it, but He does something to a person's heart before they believe and receive Christ. Don't we all have a testimony to this regarding our own salvation? People talked to me about Jesus and salvation for years and it went in one ear and out the other. Then one day, I believed. I can't explain it other than God did it. The scripture are clear that people are chosen for salvation. They are also clear that we are required to have faith. How do I reconcile that? I don't. I can't. But it's the truth because God says so.

Spurgeon said something just like that. :thumbsup:

 

[Amy.G]

Spurgeon said something just like that. :thumbsup:

Really? Well, I guess I'm in good company then.

 

[webdog]

Which is not an excuse. Get to the Bible. Don't beat the dead horse. Man can always come up with an excuse.

...not a real excuse that is truthful, which is what Skan is getting across. It's not like the reprobate will stand before God and say "the dog ate my faith"...in your model they will have a legitimate, REAL excuse that is truthful. You are focusing on the excuse aspect and not the truthfulness behind it.

 

[webdog]

That is so true. I don't know exactly how God does it. Everyone wants to say God does it this way, regeneration before faith, faith before regeneration, this before that...bla bla bla....but the truth (as I see it) is that nobody can say for sure HOW God does it, but He does something to a person's heart before they believe and receive Christ. Don't we all have a testimony to this regarding our own salvation? People talked to me about Jesus and salvation for years and it went in one ear and out the other. Then one day, I believed. I can't explain it other than God did it. The scripture are clear that people are chosen for salvation. They are also clear that we are required to have faith. How do I reconcile that? I don't. I can't. But it's the truth because God says so.

You just described John 12:32.

 

[Amy.G]

You just described John 12:32.

How so?


........

 

[jbh28]

You just described John 12:32.

God is the one drawing. Yes. He will draw both gentiles and Jews.

Another note to what Amy said is the passage in Ezekiel.

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
(Ezekiel 36:25-26 ESV)

 

[Skandelon]

Which is not an excuse. Get to the Bible. Don't beat the dead horse. Man can always come up with an excuse.

It is an excuse for unbelief. It may not be an excuse for their going to hell according to your system, but that is beside the point. The point is that an unbeliever has an excuse for his unbelief according to your system.

I say they have NO EXCUSE for their unbelief. Your system gives them the perfect excuse for not believing.

 

[jbh28]

It is an excuse for unbelief. It may not be an excuse for their going to hell according to your system, but that is beside the point. The point is that an unbeliever has an excuse for his unbelief according to your system.

I say they have NO EXCUSE for their unbelief. Your system gives them the perfect excuse for not believing.

Seriously stop it. You really are hard headed aren't you. I proved you wrong. Everyone here saw it. there is no excuse in my system. This is my last post to you on this subject unless you want to discuss the Bible and not trying to defend unbelievers for not believing by saying they have an excuse. If you say it's just in my system, then you have a straw man. Stick to the Bible. Your argument is extremely week and inconsistent. I showed you this but you pretend it's still a good argument. This is the last I'll say to you about it.

 

[webdog]

Seriously stop it. You really are hard headed aren't you. I proved you wrong. Everyone here saw it. there is no excuse in my system. This is my last post to you on this subject unless you want to discuss the Bible and not trying to defend unbelievers for not believing by saying they have an excuse. If you say it's just in my system, then you have a straw man. Stick to the Bible. Your argument is extremely week and inconsistent. I showed you this but you pretend it's still a good argument. This is the last I'll say to you about it.

Actually, you didn't prove to me he is wrong. If anything your refusal to address the truth behind the excuse and not merely the excuse says more than anything.

Example: my daughter does not speak to me and hates me for the rest of her life for missing her wedding and sues me for the cost of the entire wedding. The thing is, she told her fiance to tie me up before the wedding so I would miss it, and it was all recorded.

Same scenario concerning my daughter hating me for missing her wedding, this time I was passed out drunk and missed it due to my own negligence.

when standing before a jury, which has a legitimate excuse...and take a wild guess which one is comparable to the doctrines of "grace"

 

[jbh28]

Actually, you didn't prove to me he is wrong. If anything your refusal to address the truth behind the excuse and not merely the excuse says more than anything.

Example: my daughter does not speak to me and hates me for the rest of her life for missing her wedding and sues me for the cost of the entire wedding. The thing is, she told her fiance to tie me up before the wedding so I would miss it, and it was all recorded.

Same scenario concerning my daughter hating me for missing her wedding, this time I was passed out drunk and missed it due to my own negligence.

when standing before a jury, which has a legitimate excuse...and take a wild guess which one is comparable to the doctrines of "grace"

God doesn't keep people from believing like the fiance kept your from going to the wedding in your example.

As I told skan, man has no excuse for not repenting. God doesn't "tie people up" and keep them from repenting. No one will be in hell and say that they wanted to believe. No one.


The issue is that Skan wants to use stories and week arguments. I have repeatedly said to take a look at the Bible at the depravity of man. If what I believe about the depravity of man is wrong, he should be able to use the Bible and not weak arguments to prove me wrong. That's why I told Skan that I would not continue the discussion over excuses as it is weak and untrue. We can look at any number of the passages that teach of man's depravity.

My doctrine comes from the Bible. I believe the Bible teaches the total depravity of man. Until someone shows me the Bible not teaching it, I will believe it 100%.

 

[Amy.G]

Example: my daughter does not speak to me and hates me for the rest of her life for missing her wedding and sues me for the cost of the entire wedding. The thing is, she told her fiance to tie me up before the wedding so I would miss it, and it was all recorded.

Sin is what separates us from God. Are you accusing God of making you sin (tying you up)?

 

[webdog]

Sin is what separates us from God. Are you accusing God of making you sin (tying you up)?

If He commanded me to be there while doing that? Absolutely. Thats not justice by any stretch of the imagination, even with the wicked.

Sin is what separates us, but when He commands you to repent without granting the ability to do so its no different.

 

[Amy.G]

If He commanded me to be there while doing that? Absolutely. Thats not justice by any stretch of the imagination, even with the wicked.

Sin is what separates us, but when He commands you to repent without granting the ability to do so its no different.

How do you feel about God blinding the Jews until the times of the Gentiles is full? Does that make you say God is unfair? Is it just? Does He have the right to blind people who did nothing but be born a Jew? Does that bother you?