How do you deal with others here in our debates?

[Jeremiah2911]

I look at the debates here about the same way I see a Zebra. Are the stripes on a zebra white and black or are they black and white? The Calvinist camp says the non-Calvinist camp are hard-headed and simply won't see the truths in scripture that are so evident to them. The non-Calvinist camp says the Calvinist camp is hard-headed and so stiff-necked that you can't get them to see the reasoning and scriptural truths in free will.

I'm going to get off the OP for just a short paragraph to give my opinion which isn't worth 2cents....

I personally would agree with this statement to some extent--in my opinion, debating limited atonement is like the stripes on a zebra--non cals say Jesus tasted death for every man[not false]--I just see it as, if someone believes Jesus died for all, then His purpose obviously failed--because not all will be saved--and I know Jesus' purpose wasn't frustrated because He said It is finished!-- debate away! Our differences sometimes are just in semantics and you have to admit, it's humorous to read those "debates"

But the issue of God's sovereignty [vs freewill] in soteriology/salvation is not just words or useless debate because if I really believed man ultimately had free will, then man, by necessity, would have something to do with his/her salvation and, then, for one thing,I don't see how it could be secure [thus how can non cals embrace the 5th pt of perseverance?].....also, God wouldn't get all the glory....lastly, I would think I should have to spend all my time as a preacher trying to change men's minds using emotion or whatever technique instead of preaching the Gospel [I grew up in a Church like that [very little Bible, lots of emotion, lots of people getting saved and lost and saved and lost--no thanks]

As for how I handle it....I generally have my say, will debate a bit, and then move on down the road. Life is too short to expend too much energy on this..in the whole scheme of things it's pretty unimportant in this venue.

I enjoy reading the debates [and I learn a lot] when they are objective--there are some that just like to throw bombs which maybe makes them feel a little better [I hope] --the issue as I explained above is important though

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Now, both sections of questions go both ways. I am a Calvinist on the boards and as many do on here I would like to see peaceful debate (although over the years ive learned that is wishful thinking). Im interested to see how everyone deals with this on here? Namely protecting ourselves from a the sin such as pride and self-righteousness on the board.

Amen! I enjoy the civil debates, although I must say when you and Skandelon debate [very civil btw] I can't figure out what either of you are saying! --I think non cals should remember that many of us who consider ourselves Calvinistic didn't start off that way, and perhaps there is a tendency to get them to see our point of view and vice versa.....to me, the learning is the important thing--the learning of the Bible.....God bless Bro and keep up the good work!

 

[HankD]

I look at the debates here about the same way I see a Zebra. Are the stripes on a zebra white and black or are they black and white?

This is truly rich DiamondLady.

C versus A debate.

Is a Zebra black with white stripes or white with black stripes?

Depends on how you look at it.

HankD

 

[convicted1]

think that many over in the NON Cal camp are so ardament against it, NOTHING that we posted, no author, no verse from bible will persuade them to ever reconsider their position...

The same goes in regards to your camp, too. The problem I have, is most of the time, when the sledding gets rough, we get the "confession of faith", which were writtne by fallible men. The Word, written by fallible men, was written through the inspiration of the Spirit, making their writtings infallible.

To me, many of them fail to see just HOW the fall of Adam affected all of us, see just what the Cross was, it is a definite propiation atonement work, and deny election on basis of God doing it directly, as being "not fair!"

The fall of Adam causes us to die naturally. If Adam had not had done this, they would be alive yet today. The fall caused us to be placed under this curse. OUR SINS are what cause us to be seperated from God.


Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deut. 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

So, it is us, who bear OUR SINS, and not the sins of Adam, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Caleb, Paul, Silas, David, Solomon, Nathan, Saul, Peter, James, John, Nathaniel, Samuel, Eli, Judas Iscariot, Jezebel, Elijah, Elisha, and any other person's name you can find in the bible.


ETA: Jesus was/is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Jesus was/is the Lamb which taketh away the sin of the world. Christ died for the ungodly.

 

[preacher4truth]

The same goes in regards to your camp, too. The problem I have, is most of the time, when the sledding gets rough, we get the "confession of faith", which were writtne by fallible men. The Word, written by fallible men, was written through the inspiration of the Spirit, making their writtings infallible.

Brother, and fellow Raiders Fan, you know I love you man, but your aassessment I cannot agree with, epecially when you say when it gets rough "most of the time" (my camp) resorts to using a confession!

C'mon man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know that's not a true rep!!!!! :laugh:

 

[convicted1]

Brother, and fellow Raiders Fan, you know I love you man, but your aassessment I cannot agree with, epecially when you say when it gets rough "most of the time" (my camp) resorts to using a confession!

C'mon man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know that's not a true rep!!!!! :laugh:

I am not meaning that all of the Calvinists do this, but quite a few do.

BTW, I got to watch the Raiders game on the local Fox station here in WVa!! It got kinda hairy towards the end, but a "W" is a "W"!!! Usually Fox shows the Redskins games, or if Cincy or Pittsburgh play an NFC team, covered by Fox, I usually don't get a sniff at a Raiders game.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

I am not meaning that all of the Calvinists do this, but quite a few do.

BTW, I got to watch the Raiders game on the local Fox station here in WVa!! It got kinda hairy towards the end, but a "W" is a "W"!!! Usually Fox shows the Redskins games, or if Cincy or Pittsburgh play an NFC team, covered by Fox, I usually don't get a sniff at a Raiders game.

Ok so you and P4T should be thanking the Lord cause this Bears fan knows if Cutler wasn't injured youda lost 40-10 (ok maybe that's exaggerating but close!)

 

[preacher4truth]

Ok so you and P4T should be thanking the Lord cause this Bears fan knows if Cutler wasn't injured youda lost 40-10 (ok maybe that's exaggerating but close!)

Ahhh haaaaaaa!!!!! A bitter Bears fan!!!!!!!!!! :tongue3:

Let's say you were predestined to lose!!!!!!!!!

 

[convicted1]

Ahhh haaaaaaa!!!!! A bitter Bears fan!!!!!!!!!! :tongue3:

Let's say you were predestined to lose!!!!!!!!!

I have to agree with you. They surely didn't choose to lose.

 

[Amy.G]

In dealing with debates, first do this:

then do this:

then when you get tired of all that, do this:

and when you wake up, you'll be like this:
I WON!

 

[JesusFan]

The same goes in regards to your camp, too. The problem I have, is most of the time, when the sledding gets rough, we get the "confession of faith", which were writtne by fallible men. The Word, written by fallible men, was written through the inspiration of the Spirit, making their writtings infallible.

MY confession is the Bible itself, so did see that creeds/confessions of the bible doctrines are helpful, but not essential to being a Christian!

The fall of Adam causes us to die naturally. If Adam had not had done this, they would be alive yet today. The fall caused us to be placed under this curse. OUR SINS are what cause us to be seperated from God.

God told Adam that he would die physically AND spiritually though, and as our representative before God, we ALL received same penaly/judgement Adam did from God..
my sin nature/flesh seperates me from God, and my sin behaviour shows that I have that sinful aspect!

Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deut. 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

So, it is us, who bear OUR SINS, and not the sins of Adam, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Caleb, Paul, Silas, David, Solomon, Nathan, Saul, Peter, James, John, Nathaniel, Samuel, Eli, Judas Iscariot, Jezebel, Elijah, Elisha, and any other person's name you can find in the bible.


ETA: Jesus was/is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Jesus was/is the Lamb which taketh away the sin of the world. Christ died for the ungodly.

Jesus death secured the payment for those whom would come to Him to be saved, all those whom the Father has given Him, drawn/convicted by the HS!

 

[plain_n_simple]

Strangest thing about this Non-Cal/Cal debate both sides can get so hateful and accuse the other that they are not even saved. How sad is that? Not evereyone here does that but there are a few that are down right mean and remind me of Saul before he became Paul. I am ignorant about this John Calvin and was going to read up on the pros and cons of him. Seeing the fights here has changed my mind, I'm better off not knowing. These arguements have no edifying quality and cause more division in my view.

 

[preacher4truth]

Strangest thing about this Non-Cal/Cal debate both sides can get so hateful and accuse the other that they are not even saved. How sad is that? Not evereyone here does that but there are a few that are down right mean and remind me of Saul before he became Paul. I am ignorant about this John Calvin and was going to read up on the pros and cons of him. Seeing the fights here has changed my mind, I'm better off not knowing. These arguements have no edifying quality and cause more division in my view.

Can you document where a Cal has stated or implied a non-cal is not saved?

 

[plain_n_simple]

Doesn't matter. Read the posts and see the judgement, hatred and condemnation on both sides. It's sickening.

 

[preacher4truth]

Doesn't matter. Read the posts and see the judgement, hatred and condemnation on both sides. It's sickening.

It does matter. You stated it, please provide documentation of those who are calling others unsaved. By the way, didn't you name others Pharisees?

 

[HankD]

It does matter. You stated it, please provide documentation of those who are calling others unsaved. By the way, didn't you name others Pharisees?

There is no way to document it because they probably have been deleted by the moderators and/or administrators of the BB.

But, I have seen it done by name or at least by way of an oblique accusation or by innuendo.

Best not to dig up these putrid semantic corpse threads anyway.


HankD

 

[preacher4truth]

There is no way to document it because they probably have been deleted by the moderators and/or administrators of the BB.

But, I have seen it done by name or at least by way of an oblique accusation or by innuendo.

Best not to dig up these putrid semantic corpse threads anyway.


HankD

I've not seen a cal call into question anothers salvation. The putrid semantic corpses don't exist.

To be honest, some of the other drivel does exist, but the calling into question others salvation? Nope.

However, I have seen plenty of posts by non-cals of late calling and aligning cals as JW's and Mormons. I wonder what the implication of such is?

 

[zrs6v4]

Strangest thing about this Non-Cal/Cal debate both sides can get so hateful and accuse the other that they are not even saved. How sad is that? Not everyone here does that but there are a few that are down right mean and remind me of Saul before he became Paul.

This is true, and there is hatred I'm sure but without being in the same room it isn't always hatred. At times its passion, but other times it is hatred (and it can be clear to see). The truth is that not only does it harm the two in debate, but also is repulsive. I do not think anger and passion is compulsive but that must be teamed with understanding and gentleness.

I am ignorant about this John Calvin and was going to read up on the pros and cons of him. Seeing the fights here has changed my mind, I'm better off not knowing. These arguements have no edifying quality and cause more division in my view.

I know we call this position Calvinism and sadly I find that this terminology casts a dark shadow over what is being said. It really isn't about Calvin or anyone who has been influencial in the past as we know, it is about what is revealed in Scripture. Therefore, when we read commentaries we must not do this prematurely before we have spent time with the Scripture ourselves nor can we push commentators aside as if their words are vain. Whoever or whatever John Calvin might have been it has very little bearing on my theological standpoints. In fact Calvinism predates Calvin by about 1500-1600 years

As I tried to say earlier, I do not think you or anyone should allow debates to cast a shadow over any doctrine as if it is impossible to know because people argue over it and fight over it. I have heard that same charge toward religion in fact. How can you be so arrogant as to say you have the right religion or the right understanding about God (trinity) or know anything about salvation (soteriology)? The charge can be directed toward any study because debate and deceit exist in any conversation. We desire for things to be black and white, but nothing is that simple when you allow hundreds of voices chime in to twist your brain around a few times. I have found it keeps you quite humble. I do think these discussions lead to good edifying qualities when they are handled correctly.

I am not so sure the impersonal online forum is the best place to handle these types of things. I think the forum is good for many things and I still opt to discuss these things on here. In person it is easier to read someone and when to know to quite, but on here I see a lot of assumptions as to how we think each other are acting and it usually leads to mini-wars that are extremely silly and no good.

 

[Luke2427]

I've not seen a cal call into question anothers salvation. The putrid semantic corpses don't exist.

To be honest, some of the other drivel does exist, but the calling into question others salvation? Nope.

However, I have seen plenty of posts by non-cals of late calling and aligning cals as JW's and Mormons. I wonder what the implication of such is?

What I think the confusion rests upon here is an lack of discernment between the demolishing of arguments like Scripture demands and ad hominim.

When you say, "That thought process is horribly flawed and based in a very dangerous hermeneutic," people go nuts.

But you are not attacking PEOPLE personally. You're attacking their IDEAS.

But far too many people cannot tell the difference.

WE ARE SUPPOSED TO ATTACK IDEALS.

We don't get to abandon this God given duty just so people won't call us bullies.

But here's the funny thing. When you attack ideas, the people who hold them often become offended and respond- IRONICALLY- with VICIOUS ad homenim.

And they are the ones who most often pretend that the persons they are directly insulting or mocking are the ones who are out of line.

This world is so mixed up, isn't it?

 

[drfuss]

Luke 2427 writes:

"WE ARE SUPPOSED TO ATTACK IDEALS."

Really? I think Luke may have stated a part of the problem in these Christian debates. Should we ATTACK anything? It is that ATTACK attitude that causes some problems and the ATTACK-like responses.

We should be able to give discussions and reasons for our beliefs and why we disagree about with some beliefs, without the hostile attitude of attacking anything.