How do you deal with others here in our debates?

[Iconoclast]

Luke2427.

Luke......we would agree that we are to contend for THE FAITH....Jude3. We are to oppose error and heresy...energetically......we are with you with that.
I find that I get caught up many times and get more heated than I should.and sometimes produce more heat than light. the others here AA,jbh28, etc are reminding all of us,to remember that we are dealing with persons,some of whom are christians.....who maybe have not been exposed to truth in a way they can see yet.
It is true that heretical statements are to be vigoursly opposed.....all of the cals step up on that...as you have. You have taken an aggressive stand and have attracted much resistance.
What everyone is saying is......periodically examine if there is a speaking the truth in love. I am not saying for one moment...compromise at all clear biblical truth.

let me illustrate it this way.....a mosquito lands on your wifes back....she wants you to kill the mosquito.....

you can use a plastic flyswatter......a flamethrower.....or a bazooka...

just thinking .....the flyswatter leaves you wife unharmed...yet does away with the unclean mosquito. The flamethrower, or bazooka....might also do away with the mosquito.....but will do harm to your wife.....agreed??

That is what I am seeing posted in this thread....

Contend for the faith....yes...by all means.....but be contentious...not so much.
I believe earlier AA pointed out that as we know true understanding comes from God....we are to be patient with those :

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

We need to pray about this constantly. I have sinned in this,and probably will be provoked here on BB to fall some more. I need to work on this myself as i do not like to see false views put forth and God's glory spoken against...and yet i know God must give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

You see in the movies sometime....an undercover cop who gets caught up in the role of being a bad guy externally, that it sometimes becomes hard for him to not fall into the same behaviour as the bad guys he is trying to arrest....it is like that sometime.
You might know this already....but we all need to be reminded from time to time ...so that we do not let our good be evil spoken of.
I believe the other brethren are trying to offer this sentiment not to hurt, but to help modify, or keep things more balanced in regards to our casting down the vain imaginations that we see here sometime.

Recently...a non cal started several threads that were over the edge in his zeal against truth.....and almost immeadiatly most every non cal was quick to step up and ask this person to stop posting this unedifying trash. It was good to see that they were objective enough to realize that such posts have gone beyond what should be offered. the poster overheated and blew a gasket.
It can happen,and does. We should all strive to edify.

 

[Amy.G]

Well said Inconoclast! :thumbsup:

 

[12strings]

Calvinism is right AND wrong.
Arminianism is right AND wrong.
.

I'm not sure what this means...

 

[Winman]

I was staying out of this thread till Luke said I bring up Pelagianism (whatever that means) in post 79. Nothing could be further from the truth, I have said numerous times that no man could possibly be saved without the grace of God.

There is no way Calvinists and non-Calvinists will ever agree, that is impossible. You will never get non-Cals to believe that God DETERMINES (without the free will choice of man) who will go to heaven and who will be passed over and go to hell. Did God determine believers go to heaven? Yes. Did God determine that unbelievers will go to hell? Yes. Does God determine whether a man will believe or not? No.

There is not one verse in all scripture that says God determines who will believe and who will not. If Calvinism is true, then all who go to hell do so because God determined they would. Non-Cals will never accept this, it is an impasse.

 

[convicted1]

Well said Inconoclast! :thumbsup:

I second this Sissy. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Did you notice, Brother Iconoclast, I gave you three "thumbsup" whereas Sissy Amy gave you a measely, paultry, puny one "thumbsup"? LOL

 

[convicted1]

I'm not sure what this means...

Calvinism started by Calvin and then brought about by others through time.

Armainism(sp?) started by Jacob Aminius. Both were fallible men, with fallible theologies.

 

[Iconoclast]

I second this Sissy. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Did you notice, Brother Iconoclast, I gave you three "thumbsup" whereas Sissy Amy gave you a measely, paultry, puny one "thumbsup"? LOL

That's why I owe you a coffee Willis....3 thumbs up might even turn into a breakfast when I pass that way again:lol

We are all able to get caught up and overheat in here...but that is not the best way to go. Overall I like the passion for the word...but we must be careful to not go off the track and lose sight of what we are doing here.

 

[convicted1]

That's why i owe you a coffee Willis....3 thumbs up might even turn into a breakfast when i pass that way again:lol

LOL....that's a good'un

 

[The Archangel]

This will be my final post to you--as you are unable or unwilling to listen to the kind and gentle rebuke of a brother. I'm through wasting my time with you. I have given you a life-line in my gentle rebuke and you have done nothing but tie that line into a knot and slip it over your head.

Is it your contention that this passage pertains to all circumstances at all times- in other words, that you are to never be anything but gentle?

As you will notice, I never said that. But, this begs the question: Why do you think it is OK to never be gentle and always swinging the rod?

Because I believe in practicing what this passage teaches.

Your actions here most certainly and definitely do not prove that to be the case. Your actions, sadly, speak louder than your words.

Here at my church it is the general, almost without exception, way of things.

This is not about your church; this is about you. As far as we can see, you do not approach anything or anyone in a spirit of gentleness or in a spirit of Christian charity.

But, if I had in my church someone who taught that the King James Bible is the only truly reliable version of Scripture in the English language and that it is AS reliable as the original manuscripts; if that person would not receive correction after multiple admonitions and would not stop promoting that idea which has begun to cause division and controversy in the Body- I would then move on from "gentleness" to...

This statement, perhaps, highlights the problem. The most prominent pronoun in the above paragraph is "I." As a fellow pastor, I cringe when I see other pastors taking the role of dictator and swinging the rod themselves. In fact, the church as a body has that role, not the pastor.

I Corinthians 4
18Now some have become arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant but their power. 20For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power. 21What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?
You seem to be under the very mistaken impression that the Bible teaches the one (gentleness) to the exclusion of the other (rod).

There is no doubt about your mistaken impressions. Your actions here demonstrate that the Bible teaches the rod to the exclusion of gentleness.

I think this is because you, as well as ever other person in our culture including me, have been influenced heavily by this thinking that is particular to our age that is obsessed with tolerance and abominates condemnation.

But that is not Christian- it is pop culture.

And you, like many, many good, intelligent Christian people have not yet pulled this cultural influence from your thinking.

Again with the insulting of my faith. This is as close as you can get to questioning my salvation without actually doing it.

It seems to me that you question everyone who is not in absolute agreement with you. This is dangerous.

I say this because, so far, you have yet to make an exegetical case for your rebuke of me rebuking people.

You can't because it is not there.

Well, I have shown it, you just don't listen.

In Summary:

There are indeed times when gentleness must give way to more forcible statements. However, the key to knowing when those times are is maturity. Not everything rises to the level of rancor you pour out on everyone you engage with. Not every "mistake" in theology deserves vitriol. Sometimes probing questions are required and brow-beating serves no purpose in this.

The mature believer must understand the need for gentleness and the need for being more forceful. But the mature believer also knows when times and situations call for something other than gentleness. Sadly, in your displayed immaturity, you have never demonstrated an ability to discern the difference.

As I close, there are many passages I must share with you:

[4:1] I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, [2] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, [3] eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:1-3 ESV)

[6:1] Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted (Galatians 6:1 ESV)

[3:1] Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, [2] to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. (Titus 3:1-2 ESV)
​

This next passage is one that we all need to take to heart--but you in particular:

[13] Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. [14] But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. [15] This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. [16] For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.
[17] But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. [18] And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. (James 3:13-18 ESV)
​

Perhaps these words by Paul will make you think:

[3:1] The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [2] Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, [5] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? [6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil. (1 Timothy 3:1-7 ESV)
​

To be absolutely frank, If I were a member of your church or perhaps a deacon or an elder, I would openly call into question your qualification to hold your office--based upon your absolute unwillingness to be gentle with your brothers and sisters in Christ. That, of course, would be for your church to decide.

Paul writes this to Timothy:

[11] But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. [12] Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. [13] I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, [14] to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, [15] which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, [16] who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:11-16 ESV)
​

Did you catch that? Pursue gentleness (among the other things). And, yes, "pursue" is an imperative...meaning that Paul is commanding Timothy (and you and I) to pursue gentleness as well. And, as context suggests, that gentleness is not to be cast away when fighting the "good fight of faith."

Perhaps, in the end, all we need point you to is the Fruit of the Spirit:

[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23 ESV)
​

As I'm sure you're aware, the Fruit of the Spirit are intentionally contrasted with the works of the flesh--and those fleshly works include enmity and strife which you sow here constantly.

My last and final exhortation to you is to be gentle. Be that which you have been called to be--gentle. Do not, through your actions, show the works of the flesh. Rather, through your actions, show the fruit of the Spirit.

A word to the wise should be sufficient.

The Archangel

 

[Jerome]

Calvinism is right AND wrong.

Arminianism is right AND wrong.

I'm not sure what this means...

"I am myself persuaded that the Calvinist alone is right upon some points, and the Arminian alone is right upon others. There is a great deal of truth in the positive side of both systems, and a great deal of error in the negative side of both." —Charles Spurgeon, "Pride Catechized and Condemned"

 

[plain_n_simple]

Well said Archangel

 

[Tom Butler]

I would hope that we would deal with each other as if we were sitting across the table from each other.

 

[Luke2427]

This will be my final post to you--as you are unable or unwilling to listen to the kind and gentle rebuke of a brother. I'm through wasting my time with you. I have given you a life-line in my gentle rebuke and you have done nothing but tie that line into a knot and slip it over your head.

not gentle

his is not about your church; this is about you. As far as we can see, you do not approach anything or anyone in a spirit of gentleness or in a spirit of Christian charity.

unsubstantiated

Again with the insulting of my faith. This is as close as you can get to questioning my salvation without actually doing it.

totally inaccurate and silly.

You have better sense than to think that saying you are influenced by society questions your salvation.

EVERY HUMAN BEING EVER BORN save one is influenced by his society.

I don't call into question the salvation of the early church fathers by noting that some of them were influenced by Greek philosophy.

And I do not call into question YOUR SALVATION by noting that your overemphasis on tolerance is a result of you being influenced by this culture's philosophy.

To say otherwise is silly.

It seems to me that you question everyone who is not in absolute agreement with you. This is dangerous.

Everybody questions everybody- and?

Well, I have shown it, you just don't listen.

not before this post- you haven't.

You put up verses and did not do any exegesis nor show how they apply. You just posted them.

In Summary:

There are indeed times when gentleness must give way to more forcible statements.

Right. This is the issue.

You think those times are few and far between. You think gentleness should be applied to people like Winman who say, "GOD SPEAKS TO ME! I don't CARE what the WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST throughout her WHOLE HISTORY has believed! And I will go on preaching my ideas while abusing Scripture through heinous proof-texting and influencing as many people as I can to think the way I think- KJVO, God does not know all there is to ever know about all things at all times, etc..."

I do NOT think it is noble or good or godly to be gentle with such ideas.

I think it is good to be gentle at the start, but when they continue to preach that mess, it is quite obvious in Scripture how they are to be approached.

However, the key to knowing when those times are is maturity.

I could not agree more.

Not everything rises to the level of rancor you pour out on everyone you engage with.

Blatant over-generalization

Not every "mistake" in theology deserves vitriol. Sometimes probing questions are required and brow-beating serves no purpose in this.

Could not agree more

The mature believer must understand the need for gentleness and the need for being more forceful. But the mature believer also knows when times and situations call for something other than gentleness.

Could not agree more

Sadly, in your displayed immaturity, you have never demonstrated an ability to discern the difference.

not gentle. Please make an EFFORT at being consistent.

As I close, there are many passages I must share with you:

[4:1] I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, [2] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, [3] eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:1-3 ESV)

[6:1] Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted (Galatians 6:1 ESV)

[3:1] Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, [2] to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. (Titus 3:1-2 ESV)
​

This next passage is one that we all need to take to heart--but you in particular:

[13] Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. [14] But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. [15] This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. [16] For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.
[17] But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. [18] And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. (James 3:13-18 ESV)
​

Perhaps these words by Paul will make you think:

[3:1] The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [2] Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, [5] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? [6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil. (1 Timothy 3:1-7 ESV)
​

To be absolutely frank, If I were a member of your church or perhaps a deacon or an elder, I would openly call into question your qualification to hold your office--based upon your absolute unwillingness to be gentle with your brothers and sisters in Christ. That, of course, would be for your church to decide.

Paul writes this to Timothy:

[11] But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. [12] Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. [13] I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, [14] to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, [15] which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, [16] who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:11-16 ESV)
​

Did you catch that? Pursue gentleness (among the other things). And, yes, "pursue" is an imperative...meaning that Paul is commanding Timothy (and you and I) to pursue gentleness as well. And, as context suggests, that gentleness is not to be cast away when fighting the "good fight of faith."

Perhaps, in the end, all we need point you to is the Fruit of the Spirit:

[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23 ESV)
​

As I'm sure you're aware, the Fruit of the Spirit are intentionally contrasted with the works of the flesh--and those fleshly works include enmity and strife which you sow here constantly.

Wonderful passages of Scripture. I fully confess that I fail in many of the demands given here many times including on baptistboard.

But it does not change the fact that people like Winman and others on baptistboard, if they are to be handled biblically, are not to be handled with sugary sweetness- not after you've tried gentleness.


But I fully confess that I could give gentleness a more thorough effort at the start.

My last and final exhortation to you is to be gentle. Be that which you have been called to be--gentle. Do not, through your actions, show the works of the flesh. Rather, through your actions, show the fruit of the Spirit.

A fine exhortation as long as you don't intend for me to be sweet with pseudo-fundamentalism and openness theology.

A word to the wise should be sufficient.

The word has to be good and consistent to be worthwhile to any wise person.

Some of this is. Plenty of it, at least the apparent implications of it, is not.

 

[Amy.G]

Calvinism started by Calvin and then brought about by others through time.

Armainism(sp?) started by Jacob Aminius. Both were fallible men, with fallible theologies.

:thumbsup: (I was going to give you 3 but you are just too mean. You go in the naughty file.) :tongue3:

Exactly. All ologies are man made and therefore subject to error.

 

[Amy.G]

That's why I owe you a coffee Willis....3 thumbs up might even turn into a breakfast when I pass that way again:lol

Hey! I want breakfast too! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

I was staying out of this thread till Luke said I bring up Pelagianism (whatever that means) in post 79. Nothing could be further from the truth, I have said numerous times that no man could possibly be saved without the grace of God.

Grace of God yes, but also man allowing God to be positioned able to save us, as Jesus died to secure salvation for those whose faith allows themm to come to Christ... Still has man has tjhe ultimate basis of accepting/rejection, as we decide int he end if we get saved or not! Its our faith, our response etc...

There is no way Calvinists and non-Calvinists will ever agree, that is impossible. You will never get non-Cals to believe that God DETERMINES (without the free will choice of man) who will go to heaven and who will be passed over and go to hell. Did God determine believers go to heaven? Yes. Did God determine that unbelievers will go to hell? Yes. Does God determine whether a man will believe or not? No.

Whose Will is the Ultimate basis though of salvation, the Will of God or the will of man?

There is not one verse in all scripture that says God determines who will believe and who will not. If Calvinism is true, then all who go to hell do so because God determined they would. Non-Cals will never accept this, it is an impasse.

The Gospel of cal per Van again! We believe that sinners by their very nature cannot come to Christ to be saved, ALL are lost apart from God effectually apply the Grace of the Cross towards them who will be saved by the Will of God!

Your complaints not against Calvinor Luthor or Augustine, but Paul and Christ!

 

[Luke2427]

:thumbsup: (I was going to give you 3 but you are just too mean. You go in the naughty file.) :tongue3:

Exactly. All ologies are man made and therefore subject to error.

I don't know of a single Protestant in history who'd argue with this.

So what's your point?

 

[Amy.G]

Well Luke has accomplished the impossible. He has brought Cal's and non Cal's together in harmony and unity. So for that, I am thankful. :love2:



More advise to Luke:
1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;


There are many here who are your elders. You are to treat them with respect even when you disagree.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't know of a single Protestant in history who'd argue with this.

So what's your point?

You'll have to go back and read previous posts to understand. It wasn't directed to you. You came in mid conversation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hey! I want breakfast too! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

only one thumbs up...amyg....that might get a half a cup of coffee....not that i can be bribed or anything......

which part of tennesee do you dwell??? are you near the interstate anywhere/
40.....65.....or 81????

I get down that way from time to time...you never know ...haha

ps. although I just noticed you up graded to 3 thumbs up...lol