You may get angry or upset with me if you want, I guess. I wasn't trying to upset you. But facts are facts. You DID post the things you posted! Those are YOUR statements. Icon didn't "make anything up" about you. And I simply said, and I'll say again, your beliefs (which YOU posted) are NOT Baptist. I'm not doubting your salvation, just saying what you've posted that you believe, are contrary to Baptist beliefs. Simple as that. I, too, wonder why you haven't been called on claiming to be Baptist, when you're obviously not.
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How Do you feel About "Full Gospel" baptist churches?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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cool...now show us what Earth, Wind & Fire signifies! :smilewinkgrin:
LOL....Ding, Ding, Ding........Gary, give this lady a stuffed animal of her choice. :love2:
They are a waste of time.
I am a Baptist. I go to churches of like faith and order.
If I were a Charismatic then I might consider "full gospel," but I am not.
So why even consider it?
I know the singing group, but originally Earth, Wind, and Fire stood for three of the five Elementals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemental
righteousdude2;
I missed this post last night.We were typing at the same time...i just type very slowly and poorly.
Okay. This is a helpful clarification. Alot of the personal stuff back and forth could have been avoided with this. In a face to face conversation it is easier to pause so to speak...and say- are you meaning to say this!
I am not here to...catch you mis -speaking in a gotcha mode.That is pointless and does not edify anyone.
i should have been more careful and pressed you for clarification.:wavey:
Dude.....i have had charismatics tell me all kind of things....some say:
for example....
They would then quote, or rather misquote this section to suggest that they had the Fullness of the Spirit....and baptists had just the dead letter...which was a blasphemous idea.
One of my more humorous charismatic friends informed me that the bible has much to say about baptists......saying;
While i have an odd sense of humor and could enjoy his little joke...it has been my experience that those who believe they are "moving in the spirit " move away from the sure word of God looking for that New and fresh word.....calling scripture a dead letter. This I believe is a tragic mistake and puts the person and those they "witness" to on dangerous ground.
I know you did not say this...so I did not accuse you of this. as I posted earlier....in this thread and others you have spoken against the wof people several times. You see the error there, but believe similar to the person...AWAKEN....that there is an ongoing but neglected use of gifts.
I know several today hold this idea.Piper and Grudem mistakenly open the door to this, rather than hold the line. Someday i will try and speak to them face to face about it.....not that several more gifted pastors and persons have not taken them to task on it already. i would like to hear from them their responses face to face.
At this point i will not comment on youir personal experience as it seemed to you. That is between you and God.
Ditto here....
Others understand that God himself has closed the canon of scripture which is our rule of faith and practice,and see these ideas as extra biblical
We call these people...baptists. If someone starts there then moves on it is not a crime, but they have moved on.-[the presbyterian example i offered]
No Christian denies this.
Eph 6 is clear...but sign manifestations are not mentioned there.
No christian desires to limit God, nor can they....there is one verse in the psalms that speaks metaphorically of the covenant breakers "limiting" the Holy one of Israel ,and this verse gets seized upon and made to say more than it says, like when scripture says ....Jesus could do not mighty works there because of unbelief....these are metaphorical... god does what he has purposed to do at all times...
Dude no problem. I do not have thin skin and i know that when i post i have a hard edge to many of my posts....as others in my BB fanclub have remarked to me. I am sure sometimes I have pushed to far, or too hard.
For those times i am sorry and have to continue to work on it.My desire is to stick to the issues....but sometimes i take the bait and get pulled in
this is an important part of this discussion and now we finally zero in on the issue.....
My first response is these verses quoted by peter are great....however I think the KEY verse was omitted,and that would be verse 16;
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel...
he does not say...this is like that which was spoken of by Joel...he says clearly this IS THAT.
he does not say...this is part of it, some now and some later,
he does not say... this is a glimpse of what will happen after israel becomes a nation again...
He says THIS is that...In the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh...
this is tied in to apostloic sign gifts as the whole book of Acts speaks about.
That is severa l threads all by itself.....enough for now...back to work soon.
I missed this post last night.We were typing at the same time...i just type very slowly and poorly.
Okay. This is a helpful clarification. Alot of the personal stuff back and forth could have been avoided with this. In a face to face conversation it is easier to pause so to speak...and say- are you meaning to say this!
I am not here to...catch you mis -speaking in a gotcha mode.That is pointless and does not edify anyone.
i should have been more careful and pressed you for clarification.:wavey:
Dude.....i have had charismatics tell me all kind of things....some say:
for example....
They would then quote, or rather misquote this section to suggest that they had the Fullness of the Spirit....and baptists had just the dead letter...which was a blasphemous idea.
One of my more humorous charismatic friends informed me that the bible has much to say about baptists......saying;
While i have an odd sense of humor and could enjoy his little joke...it has been my experience that those who believe they are "moving in the spirit " move away from the sure word of God looking for that New and fresh word.....calling scripture a dead letter. This I believe is a tragic mistake and puts the person and those they "witness" to on dangerous ground.
I know you did not say this...so I did not accuse you of this. as I posted earlier....in this thread and others you have spoken against the wof people several times. You see the error there, but believe similar to the person...AWAKEN....that there is an ongoing but neglected use of gifts.
I know several today hold this idea.Piper and Grudem mistakenly open the door to this, rather than hold the line. Someday i will try and speak to them face to face about it.....not that several more gifted pastors and persons have not taken them to task on it already. i would like to hear from them their responses face to face.
At this point i will not comment on youir personal experience as it seemed to you. That is between you and God.
Ditto here....
Others understand that God himself has closed the canon of scripture which is our rule of faith and practice,and see these ideas as extra biblical
We call these people...baptists. If someone starts there then moves on it is not a crime, but they have moved on.-[the presbyterian example i offered]
No Christian denies this.
Eph 6 is clear...but sign manifestations are not mentioned there.
No christian desires to limit God, nor can they....there is one verse in the psalms that speaks metaphorically of the covenant breakers "limiting" the Holy one of Israel ,and this verse gets seized upon and made to say more than it says, like when scripture says ....Jesus could do not mighty works there because of unbelief....these are metaphorical... god does what he has purposed to do at all times...
!
Dude no problem. I do not have thin skin and i know that when i post i have a hard edge to many of my posts....as others in my BB fanclub have remarked to me. I am sure sometimes I have pushed to far, or too hard.
For those times i am sorry and have to continue to work on it.My desire is to stick to the issues....but sometimes i take the bait and get pulled in
this is an important part of this discussion and now we finally zero in on the issue.....
My first response is these verses quoted by peter are great....however I think the KEY verse was omitted,and that would be verse 16;
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel...
he does not say...this is like that which was spoken of by Joel...he says clearly this IS THAT.
he does not say...this is part of it, some now and some later,
he does not say... this is a glimpse of what will happen after israel becomes a nation again...
He says THIS is that...In the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh...
this is tied in to apostloic sign gifts as the whole book of Acts speaks about.
That is severa l threads all by itself.....enough for now...back to work soon.
Paul's Teaching on Prophesy and Tongues
2 Corinthians 10:1-6 [New Life Version - NLV]
I, Paul, ask you this myself. I do it through Christ Who is so gentle and kind. Some people say that I am gentle and quiet when I am with you, but that I have no fear and that my language is strong when I am away from you. Do not make me speak strong words to you when I come. Some people think we want the things of the world because of what we do and say. I have decided to talk to these people if I have to. It is true, we live in a body of flesh. But we do not fight like people of the world. We do not use those things (flesh like weapons) to fight with that the world uses. We use the things (supernatural things of the Holy Spirit) God gives to fight with and they have power. Those things God gives to fight with destroy the strong-places of the devil. We break down every thought and proud thing that puts itself up against the wisdom of God. We take hold of every thought and make it obey Christ. We are ready to punish those who will not obey as soon as you obey in everything.
First of all: this text is directed specifically towards the spiritual warfare that we are caught up in. This follows Pauls other referrences to the battle against the supernatural realm of the world and not the flesh, i.e., Ephesians 6 [selected verses] - "This is the last thing I want to say: Be strong with the Lord’s strength. Put on the things God gives you to fight with. Then you will not fall into the traps of the devil. Our fight is not with people. It is against the leaders and the powers and the spirits of darkness in this world. It is against the demon world that works in the heavens. Because of this, put on all the things God gives you to fight with. Then you will be able to stand in that sinful day. When it is all over, you will still be standing. So stand up and do not be moved. Wear a belt of truth around your body. Wear a piece of iron over your chest which is being right with God. Wear shoes on your feet which are the Good News of peace. Most important of all, you need a covering of faith in front of you. This is to put out the fire-arrows of the devil. The covering for your head is that you have been saved from the punishment of sin. Take the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. You must pray at all times as the Holy Spirit leads you to pray. (this sures seems to me that one is to be praying in conjunction with and in the Spirit - ICON) Pray for the things that are needed. You must watch and keep on praying. Remember to pray for all Christians. Pray for me also. Pray that I might open my mouth without fear. Pray that I will use the right words to preach that which is hard to understand in the Good News. This is the reason I was sent out. But now I am in chains for preaching the Good News. I want to keep on speaking for Christ without fear the way I should.
James 5:16 tells us "Confess to one another therefore your faults (your slips, your false steps, your offenses, your sins) and pray [also] for one another, that you may be healed and restored [to a spiritual tone of mind and heart]. The earnest (heartfelt, continued) prayer of a righteous man makes tremendous power available [dynamic in its working].
Finally, 1 Corinthiians 14 - Eagerly pursue and seek to acquire [this] love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts), especially that you may prophesy ([a]interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching).
2 For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, (NOTE: I do what I do in the privacy of my home. I do what I only when praying to God) for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the [Holy] Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding].
But [on the other hand], the one who prophesies [who interprets the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching] speaks to men for their upbuilding and constructive spiritual progress and encouragement and consolation. [When I prophesize it is in preaching espostiotially for the upbuilding of the congregation and the lifting up of Jesus].
He who speaks (which I never , ever do, publicaly, but in prayer only) in a [strange] tongue edifies and improves himself, but he who prophesies [[c]interpreting the divine will and purpose and teaching with inspiration] edifies and improves the church and promotes growth [in Christian wisdom, piety, holiness, and happiness] (this is what I do when I proclaim in prophecy).
Paul continues on, "Now I wish that you might all speak in [unknown] tongues, but more especially [I want you] to prophesy (to be inspired to preach and interpret the divine will and purpose). He who prophesies [who is inspired to preach and teach] is greater (more useful and more important) than he who speaks in [unknown] tongues, unless he should interpret [what he says], so that the church may be edified and receive good [from it].
Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in [unknown] tongues, how shall I make it to your advantage unless I speak to you either in revelation (disclosure of God’s will to man) in knowledge or in prophecy or in instruction? (I totally agree, which is why I use my language in PRAYER only). If even inanimate musical instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone [listening] know or understand what is played? And if the war bugle gives an uncertain (indistinct) call, who will prepare for battle?
Just so it is with you; if you in the [unknown] tongue speak words that are not intelligible, how will anyone understand what you are saying? For you will be talking into empty space! (Agreed).
There are, I suppose, all these many [to us unknown] tongues in the world [somewhere], and none is destitute of [its own power of] expression and meaning. But if I do not know the force and significance of the speech (language), I shall seem to be a foreigner to the one who speaks [to me], and the speaker who addresses [me] will seem a foreigner to me.
So it is with yourselves; since you are so eager and ambitious to possess spiritual endowments and manifestations of the [Holy] Spirit, [concentrate on] striving to excel and to abound [in them - the gifts you - ICON- reject] in ways that will build up the church. Something else I practice and do. 13 Therefore, the person who speaks in an [unknown] tongue should pray [for the power] to interpret and explain what he says.
Continued on next Post (sorry for the length, but felt it must be done this way)
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2 Corinthians 10:1-6 [New Life Version - NLV]
I, Paul, ask you this myself. I do it through Christ Who is so gentle and kind. Some people say that I am gentle and quiet when I am with you, but that I have no fear and that my language is strong when I am away from you. Do not make me speak strong words to you when I come. Some people think we want the things of the world because of what we do and say. I have decided to talk to these people if I have to. It is true, we live in a body of flesh. But we do not fight like people of the world. We do not use those things (flesh like weapons) to fight with that the world uses. We use the things (supernatural things of the Holy Spirit) God gives to fight with and they have power. Those things God gives to fight with destroy the strong-places of the devil. We break down every thought and proud thing that puts itself up against the wisdom of God. We take hold of every thought and make it obey Christ. We are ready to punish those who will not obey as soon as you obey in everything.
First of all: this text is directed specifically towards the spiritual warfare that we are caught up in. This follows Pauls other referrences to the battle against the supernatural realm of the world and not the flesh, i.e., Ephesians 6 [selected verses] - "This is the last thing I want to say: Be strong with the Lord’s strength. Put on the things God gives you to fight with. Then you will not fall into the traps of the devil. Our fight is not with people. It is against the leaders and the powers and the spirits of darkness in this world. It is against the demon world that works in the heavens. Because of this, put on all the things God gives you to fight with. Then you will be able to stand in that sinful day. When it is all over, you will still be standing. So stand up and do not be moved. Wear a belt of truth around your body. Wear a piece of iron over your chest which is being right with God. Wear shoes on your feet which are the Good News of peace. Most important of all, you need a covering of faith in front of you. This is to put out the fire-arrows of the devil. The covering for your head is that you have been saved from the punishment of sin. Take the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. You must pray at all times as the Holy Spirit leads you to pray. (this sures seems to me that one is to be praying in conjunction with and in the Spirit - ICON) Pray for the things that are needed. You must watch and keep on praying. Remember to pray for all Christians. Pray for me also. Pray that I might open my mouth without fear. Pray that I will use the right words to preach that which is hard to understand in the Good News. This is the reason I was sent out. But now I am in chains for preaching the Good News. I want to keep on speaking for Christ without fear the way I should.
James 5:16 tells us "Confess to one another therefore your faults (your slips, your false steps, your offenses, your sins) and pray [also] for one another, that you may be healed and restored [to a spiritual tone of mind and heart]. The earnest (heartfelt, continued) prayer of a righteous man makes tremendous power available [dynamic in its working].
Finally, 1 Corinthiians 14 - Eagerly pursue and seek to acquire [this] love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts), especially that you may prophesy ([a]interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching).
2 For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, (NOTE: I do what I do in the privacy of my home. I do what I only when praying to God) for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the [Holy] Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding].
But [on the other hand], the one who prophesies [who interprets the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching] speaks to men for their upbuilding and constructive spiritual progress and encouragement and consolation. [When I prophesize it is in preaching espostiotially for the upbuilding of the congregation and the lifting up of Jesus].
He who speaks (which I never , ever do, publicaly, but in prayer only) in a [strange] tongue edifies and improves himself, but he who prophesies [[c]interpreting the divine will and purpose and teaching with inspiration] edifies and improves the church and promotes growth [in Christian wisdom, piety, holiness, and happiness] (this is what I do when I proclaim in prophecy).
Paul continues on, "Now I wish that you might all speak in [unknown] tongues, but more especially [I want you] to prophesy (to be inspired to preach and interpret the divine will and purpose). He who prophesies [who is inspired to preach and teach] is greater (more useful and more important) than he who speaks in [unknown] tongues, unless he should interpret [what he says], so that the church may be edified and receive good [from it].
Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in [unknown] tongues, how shall I make it to your advantage unless I speak to you either in revelation (disclosure of God’s will to man) in knowledge or in prophecy or in instruction? (I totally agree, which is why I use my language in PRAYER only). If even inanimate musical instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone [listening] know or understand what is played? And if the war bugle gives an uncertain (indistinct) call, who will prepare for battle?
Just so it is with you; if you in the [unknown] tongue speak words that are not intelligible, how will anyone understand what you are saying? For you will be talking into empty space! (Agreed).
There are, I suppose, all these many [to us unknown] tongues in the world [somewhere], and none is destitute of [its own power of] expression and meaning. But if I do not know the force and significance of the speech (language), I shall seem to be a foreigner to the one who speaks [to me], and the speaker who addresses [me] will seem a foreigner to me.
So it is with yourselves; since you are so eager and ambitious to possess spiritual endowments and manifestations of the [Holy] Spirit, [concentrate on] striving to excel and to abound [in them - the gifts you - ICON- reject] in ways that will build up the church. Something else I practice and do. 13 Therefore, the person who speaks in an [unknown] tongue should pray [for the power] to interpret and explain what he says.
Continued on next Post (sorry for the length, but felt it must be done this way)
Part Two - The Gifts are Still for Today?
Continued from above post:
For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the [d]Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody]. (totally in agreement. NOTE, Paul doesn't say thes gift of tongues isn't impossible, but that it should be used productively to bear fruit).
Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit [by the [e]Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will also pray [intelligently] with my mind and understanding; I will sing with my spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will sing [intelligently] with my mind and understanding also. (It is quite clear that Paul prays and sings in the spirit, when alone).
Otherwise, if you bless and render thanks with [your] spirit [[f]thoroughly aroused by the Holy Spirit], how can anyone in the position of an outsider or he who is not gifted with [interpreting of unknown] tongues, say the Amen to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? (Agreed. The continued argument to keep prayer language in the privacy of your home).
To be sure, you may give thanks well (nobly), but the bystander is not edified [it does him no good]. I thank God that I speak in [strange] tongues (languages) more than any of you or all of you put together; (Is Paul admitting to speaking in strange tongues? I do believe he is! But then he explains when and how he utilizes this gift - like me- in private not public worship) Nevertheless, in public worship, I would rather say five words with my understanding and intelligently in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a [strange] tongue (language).
Brethren, do not be children [immature] in your thinking; continue to be babes in [matters of] evil, but in your minds be mature [men]. It is written in the Law, By men of strange languages and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and not even then will they listen to Me, says the Lord. Thus [unknown] tongues are meant for a [supernatural] sign (this is exactly what I've been saying all along, it is a supernatural gift for a supernatural purpose), not for believers but for unbelievers [on the point of believing], while prophecy (inspired preaching and teaching, interpreting the divine will and purpose) is not for unbelievers [on the point of believing] but for believers.
Therefore, if the whole church assembles and all of you speak in [unknown] tongues, and the ungifted and uninitiated or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are demented? But if all prophesy [giving inspired testimony and interpreting the divine will and purpose] and an unbeliever or untaught outsider comes in, he is told of his sin and reproved and convicted and convinced by all, and his defects and needs are examined (estimated, determined) and he is called to account by all,
(Here is the result of supernmatural prophesy from the above two verses) The secrets of his heart are laid bare; and so, falling on [his] face, he will worship God, declaring that God is among you in very truth.
What then, brethren, is [the right course]? When you meet together, each one has a hymn, a teaching, a disclosure of special knowledge or information, an utterance in a [strange] tongue, or an interpretation of it. [But] let everything be constructive and edifying and for the good of all (in my case it follows this course of action in order to not offend, or as I like to say, "To not bruise the fruit).
If some speak in a [strange] tongue, let the number be limited to two or at the most three, and each one [taking his] turn, and let one interpret and explain [what is said]. (Paul clearly doesn't state that tongues CAN'T be used in church, which is why he lays out rules for orderly use of tongues in church) But if there is no one to do the interpreting, let each of them keep still in church and talk to himself and to God. So let two or three prophets speak [those inspired to preach or teach], while the rest pay attention and weigh and discern what is said.
But if an inspired revelation comes to another who is sitting by, then let the first one be silent. For in this way you can give testimony [prophesying and thus interpreting the divine will and purpose] one by one, so that all may be instructed and all may be stimulated and encouraged; For the spirits of the prophets (the speakers in tongues) are under the speaker’s control [and subject to being silenced as may be necessary], For He [Who is the source of their prophesying] is not a God of confusion and disorder but of peace and order. As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God’s people), The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says. (I should point out that the majority of my Baptist bretheran use this verse to keep women out of the pulpit. So if you use this verse, WHY are you willing to ignore the remainder of this text regarding tongues and porphesy? If it's good for the goose, it shoudl be good for the gander. You can't pick and choose folks). But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [[g]for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church].
What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you? If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.
But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [[h]that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not].
So [to conclude], my brethren, earnestly desire and set your hearts on prophesying (on being inspired to preach and teach and to interpret God’s will and purpose), and do not forbid or hinder speaking in [unknown] tongues.
But all things should be done with regard to decency and propriety and in an orderly fashion. (Again, everything I have presentd in my arguments in this OP have been to expain what, why and how I do what I do, i.e., 1) all I do is to lift up God, 2) lift up the people, 3) and I strictly adhere to the rules Paul lays out in the teaching of this chapeter from Corinthians, in an orderly, private fashion so not to bring undue attention to me or any gifts He's given me).
Finally, last but definietly not least - Paul writes in Eph. 6:12 (NASB) "For our struggle is not against [a]flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."
For this reason, God has truly equipped us with supernatural gifts, and he never once state that tongues or prohesy ended, but rather continued, which is why he laid out a set plan of rules to keep those gifts in church so as to not turn off the church or turn the world away.
Nothing I do is done out of line with Paul's teaching. I am not saying I don't have a prayer language (but I also do not promote that YOU need one to prove yourself equipped for God), or use prophesy when I speak (which has no restrictions per Paul, in fact it is encouraged).
Some of you BB members may think it strange that I have received and used gifts that you believe are not allowed, yet I present to you one complete chapter and other texts, that allow for what I do, so the problem is not mine but yours.
I leave you with this text and a few extra translations of the text, to show that God is in fact preparing and equipping His church for the end of times:
New International Version (©1984)
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
New Living Translation (©2007)
In the last days,' God says, 'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.
English Standard Version (©2001)
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
Shalom :type:
Continued from above post:
For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the [d]Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody]. (totally in agreement. NOTE, Paul doesn't say thes gift of tongues isn't impossible, but that it should be used productively to bear fruit).
Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit [by the [e]Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will also pray [intelligently] with my mind and understanding; I will sing with my spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will sing [intelligently] with my mind and understanding also. (It is quite clear that Paul prays and sings in the spirit, when alone).
Otherwise, if you bless and render thanks with [your] spirit [[f]thoroughly aroused by the Holy Spirit], how can anyone in the position of an outsider or he who is not gifted with [interpreting of unknown] tongues, say the Amen to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? (Agreed. The continued argument to keep prayer language in the privacy of your home).
To be sure, you may give thanks well (nobly), but the bystander is not edified [it does him no good]. I thank God that I speak in [strange] tongues (languages) more than any of you or all of you put together; (Is Paul admitting to speaking in strange tongues? I do believe he is! But then he explains when and how he utilizes this gift - like me- in private not public worship) Nevertheless, in public worship, I would rather say five words with my understanding and intelligently in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a [strange] tongue (language).
Brethren, do not be children [immature] in your thinking; continue to be babes in [matters of] evil, but in your minds be mature [men]. It is written in the Law, By men of strange languages and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and not even then will they listen to Me, says the Lord. Thus [unknown] tongues are meant for a [supernatural] sign (this is exactly what I've been saying all along, it is a supernatural gift for a supernatural purpose), not for believers but for unbelievers [on the point of believing], while prophecy (inspired preaching and teaching, interpreting the divine will and purpose) is not for unbelievers [on the point of believing] but for believers.
Therefore, if the whole church assembles and all of you speak in [unknown] tongues, and the ungifted and uninitiated or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are demented? But if all prophesy [giving inspired testimony and interpreting the divine will and purpose] and an unbeliever or untaught outsider comes in, he is told of his sin and reproved and convicted and convinced by all, and his defects and needs are examined (estimated, determined) and he is called to account by all,
(Here is the result of supernmatural prophesy from the above two verses) The secrets of his heart are laid bare; and so, falling on [his] face, he will worship God, declaring that God is among you in very truth.
What then, brethren, is [the right course]? When you meet together, each one has a hymn, a teaching, a disclosure of special knowledge or information, an utterance in a [strange] tongue, or an interpretation of it. [But] let everything be constructive and edifying and for the good of all (in my case it follows this course of action in order to not offend, or as I like to say, "To not bruise the fruit).
If some speak in a [strange] tongue, let the number be limited to two or at the most three, and each one [taking his] turn, and let one interpret and explain [what is said]. (Paul clearly doesn't state that tongues CAN'T be used in church, which is why he lays out rules for orderly use of tongues in church) But if there is no one to do the interpreting, let each of them keep still in church and talk to himself and to God. So let two or three prophets speak [those inspired to preach or teach], while the rest pay attention and weigh and discern what is said.
But if an inspired revelation comes to another who is sitting by, then let the first one be silent. For in this way you can give testimony [prophesying and thus interpreting the divine will and purpose] one by one, so that all may be instructed and all may be stimulated and encouraged; For the spirits of the prophets (the speakers in tongues) are under the speaker’s control [and subject to being silenced as may be necessary], For He [Who is the source of their prophesying] is not a God of confusion and disorder but of peace and order. As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God’s people), The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says. (I should point out that the majority of my Baptist bretheran use this verse to keep women out of the pulpit. So if you use this verse, WHY are you willing to ignore the remainder of this text regarding tongues and porphesy? If it's good for the goose, it shoudl be good for the gander. You can't pick and choose folks). But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [[g]for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church].
What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you? If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.
But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [[h]that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not].
So [to conclude], my brethren, earnestly desire and set your hearts on prophesying (on being inspired to preach and teach and to interpret God’s will and purpose), and do not forbid or hinder speaking in [unknown] tongues.
But all things should be done with regard to decency and propriety and in an orderly fashion. (Again, everything I have presentd in my arguments in this OP have been to expain what, why and how I do what I do, i.e., 1) all I do is to lift up God, 2) lift up the people, 3) and I strictly adhere to the rules Paul lays out in the teaching of this chapeter from Corinthians, in an orderly, private fashion so not to bring undue attention to me or any gifts He's given me).
Finally, last but definietly not least - Paul writes in Eph. 6:12 (NASB) "For our struggle is not against [a]flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."
For this reason, God has truly equipped us with supernatural gifts, and he never once state that tongues or prohesy ended, but rather continued, which is why he laid out a set plan of rules to keep those gifts in church so as to not turn off the church or turn the world away.
Nothing I do is done out of line with Paul's teaching. I am not saying I don't have a prayer language (but I also do not promote that YOU need one to prove yourself equipped for God), or use prophesy when I speak (which has no restrictions per Paul, in fact it is encouraged).
Some of you BB members may think it strange that I have received and used gifts that you believe are not allowed, yet I present to you one complete chapter and other texts, that allow for what I do, so the problem is not mine but yours.
I leave you with this text and a few extra translations of the text, to show that God is in fact preparing and equipping His church for the end of times:
New International Version (©1984)
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
New Living Translation (©2007)
In the last days,' God says, 'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.
English Standard Version (©2001)
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
Shalom :type:
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The chapters in Cor.12-14 were given to regulate the sign gifts that were already manifest during this transitional time. No one disputes that.It went from jews ,to samaritans, to gentiles.[this is one teaching that the dispensational brothers had correctly]
These chapters are not directions for us now.
The verse in 2cor 10.....is not speaking of demonic forces...but rather men puffed up against the truth of God....
This is why we do not agree.While you can see those in our day who are lunatics...
you still seek to make a case along this line...
if there are counterfeits...there must be a true...Correct?
Dispensational baptists will identify with verses they think show ...lying signs and wonders in "the last days'.
I keep it as written, believing it as it was written to those historic churches, for the purpose it was written to them for.
Your idea that cessationists are opposing what God does would be true, if any of us lived in Apostolic times,and denied the sign gifts as they were manifest.
This was the historical purpose,along with helping form the foundational teaching...
notice the quote about Jesus as the chief corner stone is Isa.
and here in Eph 2
This was the biblical purpose and explanation given by the Spirit of God to Paul.
These chapters are not directions for us now.
The verse in 2cor 10.....is not speaking of demonic forces...but rather men puffed up against the truth of God....
This is why we do not agree.While you can see those in our day who are lunatics...
you still seek to make a case along this line...
if there are counterfeits...there must be a true...Correct?
Dispensational baptists will identify with verses they think show ...lying signs and wonders in "the last days'.
I keep it as written, believing it as it was written to those historic churches, for the purpose it was written to them for.
Your idea that cessationists are opposing what God does would be true, if any of us lived in Apostolic times,and denied the sign gifts as they were manifest.
This is speaking of covenant breaking Israel...as Paul quotes from ISA.28
This was the historical purpose,along with helping form the foundational teaching...
notice the quote about Jesus as the chief corner stone is Isa.
and here in Eph 2
This was the biblical purpose and explanation given by the Spirit of God to Paul.
Oh., I'm Not Angry...
...that is your perrogative brother. So I hope you in turn do not get angry with me for questioning your self-proclamation ans elf-certification as a Baptist.
As a card carrying Baptist, and ordained Southern Conference Baptist Pastor, I would have to turn the tables and say that if I'm a Baptist [according to my credentials] "I don't know what you are, but BAPTIST, you are not."
...that is your perrogative brother. So I hope you in turn do not get angry with me for questioning your self-proclamation ans elf-certification as a Baptist.
As a card carrying Baptist, and ordained Southern Conference Baptist Pastor, I would have to turn the tables and say that if I'm a Baptist [according to my credentials] "I don't know what you are, but BAPTIST, you are not."
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Good Attempt to Spin it Your Way
I stand by my two part post. Paul did not say those gifts were obsolete or firbidden. He in fact said he spoke in tongues and prophesy. He laid out rules for the orderly use of said gifts in churches, but did not say these gifts were dead and not to be uses. He did forbid women to speak in church, which means if he was right on with that teaching to the church, than he was right on with the teaching above and below that point in Chapter 10. :wavey:
We are in a spiritual war with a supernatural enemy. This enemy will require more than intellect to defeat it, which is why God gave the Holy Ghost and equiped the church with supernatural weapons and tools.
The Bible is a base, a springboard from which we get our directions. Then God speaks to us. If He does speak, we are to see if what we hear is in line with Scripture, and it is no doubt that the equipping of saints with tongues and prophesy is in line with many Scriptures throughout the OT and NT.
No, go your way and fight the good fight as you see best. And loow me to go my way and fight the good fight as I see best. In the end we'll both meet, one day in heaven, for that cup of coffee to compare our stories. :wavey:
I stand by my two part post. Paul did not say those gifts were obsolete or firbidden. He in fact said he spoke in tongues and prophesy. He laid out rules for the orderly use of said gifts in churches, but did not say these gifts were dead and not to be uses. He did forbid women to speak in church, which means if he was right on with that teaching to the church, than he was right on with the teaching above and below that point in Chapter 10. :wavey:
We are in a spiritual war with a supernatural enemy. This enemy will require more than intellect to defeat it, which is why God gave the Holy Ghost and equiped the church with supernatural weapons and tools.
The Bible is a base, a springboard from which we get our directions. Then God speaks to us. If He does speak, we are to see if what we hear is in line with Scripture, and it is no doubt that the equipping of saints with tongues and prophesy is in line with many Scriptures throughout the OT and NT.
No, go your way and fight the good fight as you see best. And loow me to go my way and fight the good fight as I see best. In the end we'll both meet, one day in heaven, for that cup of coffee to compare our stories. :wavey:
What language do you speak when you're speaking in tongues? Do you know what you're saying? Is there an interpreter present?
Where does the bible say that tongues are used as a weapon against Satan?
Dude
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
I will stay here.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
I will stay here.
I Hope This Answers Your Questions?
1 Corinthians 14:39-40 (NKJV) - "Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order."
1 Corinthians 14:39-40 (MSG) - "Three things, then, to sum this up: When you speak forth God’s truth, speak your heart out. Don’t tell people how they should or shouldn’t pray when they’re praying in tongues that you don’t understand. Be courteous and considerate in everything."
1 Cor. 2:5-16 (NKJV) - "...your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ."
I've researched this topic quite extensively; however, I tend to think you will still disagree with my explanations, [based on past talks with you] and if this is the case, that is your right sister?
As I've said, What I've been given. I use for my own personal edification. I do not endeavor to make others feel it is something they must, or must not have. I'm sure you have many gifts that you are very comfortable with, and that is great. Even after I received these gifts, I had to do a lot of soul searching, study and prayer to make sure these things were of God and not my own emotions or some other spirit. I am quite comfortable and confident in what I've been led to in my conclusions, and I can honestly tell you that I believe these gifts are of God [as tools and weapons] for enhancing the ministry He's called me to. Believe me what I say, "I am not asking you, or anyone else, to come along on this ride! These are a heavy, controversial topic and issue, which can become quite heated, especially here on the BB. I'd suggest you allow those who move in the realm of the spirit to do so without bias, prejudice and provocation, because to cause a riff over the gifts other have or don't have is not what God called us to do.
I have no problems with Brl or Icon, or you. I just want to be left alone to do as I believe God has called me to do. I only answered the OP question, because I wanted to continue in the spirit of transparency that I've always demonstrated on this board. I was not bragging or boasting, just being honest. However, I guess honesty is NOT always the best way to go, when so many are so determined that they have the right way, and people like me are flawed to the core of our salvation experience!
1 Corinthians 14:39-40 (NKJV) - "Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order."
1 Corinthians 14:39-40 (MSG) - "Three things, then, to sum this up: When you speak forth God’s truth, speak your heart out. Don’t tell people how they should or shouldn’t pray when they’re praying in tongues that you don’t understand. Be courteous and considerate in everything."
~ AND ~
1 Cor. 2:5-16 (NKJV) - "...your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ."
I've researched this topic quite extensively; however, I tend to think you will still disagree with my explanations, [based on past talks with you] and if this is the case, that is your right sister?
As I've said, What I've been given. I use for my own personal edification. I do not endeavor to make others feel it is something they must, or must not have. I'm sure you have many gifts that you are very comfortable with, and that is great. Even after I received these gifts, I had to do a lot of soul searching, study and prayer to make sure these things were of God and not my own emotions or some other spirit. I am quite comfortable and confident in what I've been led to in my conclusions, and I can honestly tell you that I believe these gifts are of God [as tools and weapons] for enhancing the ministry He's called me to. Believe me what I say, "I am not asking you, or anyone else, to come along on this ride! These are a heavy, controversial topic and issue, which can become quite heated, especially here on the BB. I'd suggest you allow those who move in the realm of the spirit to do so without bias, prejudice and provocation, because to cause a riff over the gifts other have or don't have is not what God called us to do.
I have no problems with Brl or Icon, or you. I just want to be left alone to do as I believe God has called me to do. I only answered the OP question, because I wanted to continue in the spirit of transparency that I've always demonstrated on this board. I was not bragging or boasting, just being honest. However, I guess honesty is NOT always the best way to go, when so many are so determined that they have the right way, and people like me are flawed to the core of our salvation experience!
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I'm Seriously Looking Forward...
...to where we go from here? This seems to be a never-ending saga, and it seems so unnecessary.
I guess it is true that the church is the only army on earth that "kills" their wounded! And in my case, some are trying to kill a healthy, able soldier, who has a few weapons and tools in his backpack/arsenal that they don't have?
Is it really out of concern? Or, could it be a form of jealousy or envy? Only God knows the answer. As far as I'm concerned, me thinks some of you have gone just a little too far in judging me. We are clearly at an impasse, but asking for the mods to banish me from this particular forum [because we differ on the theology of gifts] is sticking your spiritual nose into something that you needn't have stuck it into!!!
I have never done anything on this board to warrant such condemnation and personal spite.
I was hoping to avoid having to get into my rationale for believing as I do, but overly concerned individuals put me in the place of sharing the who, what and wheres of my theology. I can do nothing more than present my views and how I arrived at those conclusions, and pray you eventually leave me to be, so I can get back to do what I've done quite well at since joining your Forum: submitting sound articles for your edification and spiritual enjoyment!
Shalom, and may those who think I don't belong on this forum prayerfully search your hearts as to the real reasons you are opposed to my kind? Me thinks you are AFRAID? I know I was once afraid, so I understand. But, God does have a sense of humor, and sometimes that which we doth protest much is what we end up having to eat for supper the next night? So be very careful my beloved. I speak to you from personal experience!!!raying:
...to where we go from here? This seems to be a never-ending saga, and it seems so unnecessary.
I guess it is true that the church is the only army on earth that "kills" their wounded! And in my case, some are trying to kill a healthy, able soldier, who has a few weapons and tools in his backpack/arsenal that they don't have?
Is it really out of concern? Or, could it be a form of jealousy or envy? Only God knows the answer. As far as I'm concerned, me thinks some of you have gone just a little too far in judging me. We are clearly at an impasse, but asking for the mods to banish me from this particular forum [because we differ on the theology of gifts] is sticking your spiritual nose into something that you needn't have stuck it into!!!
I have never done anything on this board to warrant such condemnation and personal spite.
I was hoping to avoid having to get into my rationale for believing as I do, but overly concerned individuals put me in the place of sharing the who, what and wheres of my theology. I can do nothing more than present my views and how I arrived at those conclusions, and pray you eventually leave me to be, so I can get back to do what I've done quite well at since joining your Forum: submitting sound articles for your edification and spiritual enjoyment!
Shalom, and may those who think I don't belong on this forum prayerfully search your hearts as to the real reasons you are opposed to my kind? Me thinks you are AFRAID? I know I was once afraid, so I understand. But, God does have a sense of humor, and sometimes that which we doth protest much is what we end up having to eat for supper the next night? So be very careful my beloved. I speak to you from personal experience!!!
raying:righteousdude2, so what if you were to be banned? You know how much sleep I'd lose if I were banned?
If banning someone, or kicking them out of a church, or scornfully looking down on another without "just cause"..., would be their loss.
You'd just have to kick the dust off your feet and keep on trucking. If your line of thinking were that far out in left field the Lord will deal with you.
Have a good day my friend.
If banning someone, or kicking them out of a church, or scornfully looking down on another without "just cause"..., would be their loss.
You'd just have to kick the dust off your feet and keep on trucking. If your line of thinking were that far out in left field the Lord will deal with you.
Have a good day my friend.
This has always been the strangest interpretation anyone (usually Charismatics) has given me. As the explanation is supposed to defend speaking in a private prayer language it is one that defeats itself. If one is speaking in a language that cannot be uttered then it cannot be of the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with groans and words which cannot be uttered! Not even made possible by the human vocal chords, not by a private prayer language or by any other words. They are specifically the groanings of the Holy Spirit. This verse shatters the argument of those who believe in private prayer language, not supports it.
This is the danger of not using scripture as our only rule of faith and practice. To say scripture is a spingboard...then wait for additional revelation or instruction is to open the door to all manner of error. Then no one can question this new moving of the spirit...alaleo....not a tongue..
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