How Do you feel About "Full Gospel" baptist churches?

[Aaron]

Just bumping this up to take the other thread off the index page.

 

[Yeshua1]

According to the following "By your own words you said you were ordained to ministry without the HolyGhost...here is what you said; Quote:
I hooked on as music minister and associate pastor at another Baptist church, and two years later I was ordained.

I still hadn't come in contact with the Holy Ghost, and the gifts until I had a life-changing event."

YOu are right, after re reading the texts I clearly mis-spoke. What I meant was that until that service where a prophet was present, I hadn't seen or heard that side of the Holy Ghost. In no way did I mean that I had never received the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I had the Holy Ghost when I was ordained. I just never experienced the use of these gifts in a way that manifested that night. And while I wanted to question everything that was taking place, God was so real during that event in my life, that to deny what I observed would have been a kin to calling God a liar.

I did purchase a copy of the incident/event, and the more I listened to it, the more convinced I was that God could and still did things in the supernatural that we didn't understand or always have an explanation for. It wasn't outside the Scripture, in fact; it was similar to what happened on Pentecost, as I observed the presence of the Spirit descend on the place, and especially in my life, heart and soul.

As I said in an earlier post, if we proclaim that God can do miracles, why can't God still talk to His children and manifest Hmself in supernatural ways? To believe in miracles but not in the equipping of the saints with gifts that were used throughout both the OT and the NT, would be wrong. And after years of believing just that [that the gifts of Pentecost ended at Pentecost] I could no longer deny or argue the point. Like I said, you'd have to have been there and to have been in my shoes. Had you were, I am sure you'd be on the other side of the topic.

The difference between me and others in the charismatic movement is that I have never once preached that what God gave me was something that everyone was supposed to have as a sign of their holiness.

I didn't believe then, and I still don't believe that one gift is superior or inferior to another. I just believe that God is not limited by what scholar on one side of this issue claim God is limited to.

He is a supernatural God [I don't think anyone here can say He isn't? After all, the Bible is filled from Genesis to Revelations with supernatural events. Even Paul told us to put on the supernatural equipment and take up the supernatural weapons of faith - which is supernatural too - to fight the supernatural enemy]. He has always done things that are out of the norm. Noah was questioned as to his being told to build the ark. Jonah knew what he was to do, and he ran until God prepared a fish for him. Daniel did some extraordinary things. And who was willing to believe Jonah wneh he told them of the fish swallowing him?

And in case you forget, in Catholic circles, they teach that all the above a merely stories or parables to strengthen and challenge our faith?Catholic theologians still call these "stories" and not historical facts. In my Biblical Worldview, these are ALL historical facts.

If we begin to limit God to what we think He can and should do, we are in danger of limiting His ability to work with and through us.

So again, I see where Icon could get all excited over what I miss poke, and I apologize. My bad!

If you don't know what I am, let me say that maybe I'm just a progressive prototype of what God has in mind for the end of days.

To quote the Word:

New International Version (©1984)
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

New Living Translation (©2007)
In the last days,' God says, 'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
And it will be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all humanity; then your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.

International Standard Version (©2012)
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on everyone. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.

When this event took place, I was still rather young, so I'd like to think? :laugh:

That "event" was pentacost, and the Apostolic Age, as Peter referenced it as being fulfilled "at that time"

Think what many of us are concerned about is that there is a danger in making subjective emotionalism amd experiences as evidence that one was encountering and being used bythe Lord!

 

[Yeshua1]

They are a waste of time.
I am a Baptist. I go to churches of like faith and order.
If I were a Charismatic then I might consider "full gospel," but I am not.
So why even consider it?

I came out of those circles, so i would not, but IF one was staying in it, wouldn't a baptist doctrine church have better shot at staying morescripturally than majority of "Crazy charasmatics" churches though ?

 

[Yeshua1]

I stand by my two part post. Paul did not say those gifts were obsolete or firbidden. He in fact said he spoke in tongues and prophesy. He laid out rules for the orderly use of said gifts in churches, but did not say these gifts were dead and not to be uses. He did forbid women to speak in church, which means if he was right on with that teaching to the church, than he was right on with the teaching above and below that point in Chapter 10. :wavey:

We are in a spiritual war with a supernatural enemy. This enemy will require more than intellect to defeat it, which is why God gave the Holy Ghost and equiped the church with supernatural weapons and tools.

The Bible is a base, a springboard from which we get our directions. Then God speaks to us. If He does speak, we are to see if what we hear is in line with Scripture, and it is no doubt that the equipping of saints with tongues and prophesy is in line with many Scriptures throughout the OT and NT.

No, go your way and fight the good fight as you see best. And loow me to go my way and fight the good fight as I see best. In the end we'll both meet, one day in heaven, for that cup of coffee to compare our stories. :wavey:

Same Apostle paul told us to put on the full armor of God, and NONE of that mentions take up/use your spiritual gifts to fight off satan with!

 

[DHK]

I came out of those circles, so i would not, but IF one was staying in it, wouldn't a baptist doctrine church have better shot at staying morescripturally than majority of "Crazy charasmatics" churches though ?

I don't entertain such options.
First, if I were not in the ministry I would find a place to live where there is a good solid Bible-teaching local church to attend. The spiritual welfare of my family is more important than the physical welfare (even my job). Move if you have to and find another job. I advise people to do that.

Second, if I am in the ministry, and I am, and there is no good church in the area, then start one. That is what the Lord has put us here for. Preach the word. Baptize. Disciple. Organize into local churches.

I don't believe in compromising my beliefs in uniting with others that don't believe the same as I do. It doesn't work. I have had experience in those kind of situations. Have you ever been asked to be a Sunday School teacher and then to teach something you don't believe in? Would you do it? Or would you leave, and do something better?

 

[righteousdude2]

Muchas Gracias

righteousdude2, so what if you were to be banned? You know how much sleep I'd lose if I were banned?

If banning someone, or kicking them out of a church, or scornfully looking down on another without "just cause"..., would be their loss.

You'd just have to kick the dust off your feet and keep on trucking. If your line of thinking were that far out in left field the Lord will deal with you.

Have a good day my friend.

Muchas Gracias mi buen amigo y hermano! :thumbs:

Est-ce qu'Oh ma qualité, ce parler considéré est dans des langues ? :laugh:

:type: אם הוא נמצא אז אני מאוד בעיה גדולה. אה, כן, כמו שאתה אומר, למי איכפת. אלוהים גדול הרבה יותר מאשר רדוד התודעה

Shalom!

 

[righteousdude2]

Utterly Ridiculous...

This is the danger of not using scripture as our only rule of faith and practice. To say scripture is a spingboard...then wait for additional revelation or instruction is to open the door to all manner of error. Then no one can question this new moving of the spirit...alaleo....not a tongue..

...you mean that you don't prayerfully approach the Scripture, and ask the Spirit to illuminate you? What is wrong with this? It would seem to me the thing to do when it comes to wanting to better understand what the Lord is saying through Scripture. Bible study, strictly on ones own intellectual abilities, is more dangerous than what you accuse me of, emotionalism! I'd choose spiritual illumination over intellectualism any day!

 

[righteousdude2]

Same Apostle paul told us to put on the full armor of God, and NONE of that mentions take up/use your spiritual gifts to fight off satan with!

The entire teaching of the Armor of God is metaphorically speaking, and it is in the realm of fighting a spiritual enemy with spiritual armor.

Also, [although there are more places, but not enough time] in Ephesians 6:10-18 (NKJV) -"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil (this is a spiritual, not physical enemy). For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor (see verse 18below, as "prayer and supplication in the Spirit" is listed as one of the weapons) of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; [18] praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—"
Yeshua - where are these things ever considered physical weapons? They are all spiritual, and they require spiritual faith and knowhow to use and utilize them in a manner and fashion to defeat a spiritual enemy.

With that said, how can you say, with a straight face, that PRAYER is not a spiritual weapon? It isn't a physical, tangible weapon that you can pick up and clobber the devil over the head with??? It is purely spiritual, and how we pray is the crux of the directive to, "praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit!" What do you consider "in the Spirit" to mean?

How one prayers, once they enter their prayer closet, is between them and God. Especially if God hears our words, no matter what language we speak in, and moves upon those prayers! Would you say that God actually hears our words or rather what is on our heart and deep from within our spirit? If He doesn't know our deepest groanings than explain: Romans 8:26- (KJV) "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which" cannot be uttered.

And if our words are so important than why would Jesus have said, that, "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:8 (AMP)?



8

 

[HAMel]

Eso es. Mucho más que una mente superficial.

 

[righteousdude2]

In Other Words!

eso es. Mucho más que una mente superficial.

אמן כן יהי רצון! שלום!

 

[righteousdude2]

Taske Note and Be Very Concerned, for the Day is Yet to Come!

That "event" was pentacost, and the Apostolic Age, as Peter referenced it as being fulfilled "at that time"

Think what many of us are concerned about is that there is a danger in making subjective emotionalism amd experiences as evidence that one was encountering and being used bythe Lord!

New International Version (©1984)
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

New Living Translation (©2007)
In the last days,' God says, 'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Also in Acts 2:16-18 (AMP) - "But [instead] this is [the beginning of] what was spoken through the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy [[a]telling forth the divine counsels] and your young men shall see visions (divinely granted appearances), and your old men shall dream [[c]divinely suggested] dreams. Yes, and on My menservants also and on My maidservants in those days I will pour out of My Spirit, and they shall prophesy [[d]telling forth the divine counsels and [e]predicting future events pertaining especially to God’s kingdom]."

None of these event took place at Pentecost. They are still to come. What will the Baptist church have to say about those who are tapped by God to do these things. Especially the fact that "Women" yes, women will speak propheys? What will this do to the teaching in the Baptist theology that women are not to speak in, "prophesy [[d]telling forth the divine counsels and [e]predicting future events pertaining especially to God’s kingdom."

God will not be limited by our theological understandings, nor our denominational standards. He is much larger and more awesome then on denomination's teachings, and those teachings will not stop what has been foretold to come.

Finally, here what Peter finished up with his discourse of final day blessings: "And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is to and for you and your children (this speaks to a generation to yet come), and to and for all that are far away, [even] to and for as many as the Lord our God invites and bids to come to Himself. And [Peter] solemnly and earnestly witnessed (testified) and admonished (exhorted) with much more continuous speaking and warned (reproved, advised, encouraged) them, saying, Be saved from this crooked (perverse, wicked, unjust) generation.

Therefore those who accepted and welcomed his message were baptized, and there were added that day about 3,000 souls.

• And they steadfastly persevered, devoting themselves constantly to the instruction and fellowship of the apostles, to the breaking of bread [including the Lord’s Supper] and prayers.

• And a sense of awe (reverential fear) came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were performed through the apostles (the special messengers).

And all who believed (who adhered to and trusted in and relied on Jesus Christ) were united and [together] they had everything in common; And they sold their possessions (both their landed property and their movable goods) and distributed the price among all, according as any had need.

And day after day they regularly assembled in the temple with united purpose, and in their homes they broke bread [including the Lord’s Supper]. They partook of their food with gladness and simplicity and generous hearts,

Constantly praising God and being in favor and goodwill with all the people; and the Lord kept adding [to their number] daily those who were being saved [from spiritual death]....if those around you started to speak about their dreams, visions and speaking prophesy?

Yet no one, incluing you has addressed this Scripture, which has nothing to do with the Day of Pentecost, but rather about an appointed day and time yet to come.

The above Scripture has to do NOT only with the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost, but with the days to come. I know that Baptists believe we are in the LAST DAYS, and if this is so, than Joels words are coming to pass. Every one who limits God, will definitely have to open their minds and hearts, or be left out of the last days movement coming upon the earth [in old men, young men, and women]! I did not mean to insinuate those with closed minds wuld not go to heaven. They would just be passed by when the Holy Ghost passes out the end day gifts.

 

[Amy.G]

The Joel prophecy was to the Jews. Their sons and daughters would prophesy.

All scripture is for me, but not all scripture is to me.

 

[DHK]

The above Scripture has to do NOT only with the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost, but with the days to come. I know that Baptists believe we are in the LAST DAYS, and if this is so, than Joels words are coming to pass. Every one who limits God, will definitely have to open their minds and hearts, or be left out of the last days movement coming upon the earth [in old men, young men, and women]! I did not mean to insinuate those with closed minds wuld not go to heaven. They would just be passed by when the Holy Ghost passes out the end day gifts.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;[/quote]
The phenomena that they had just seen and heard was spoken of by the prophet Joel. But it didn't stop there. Joel spoke more, and it is recorded here as well:

17

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The last days do not necessarily refer to this time. The in all probability refer to time of the Millennial Kingdom which comes after the Second Coming of Christ. The context does not fit this present times.

18

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

1. Nowhere in all of history has God poured out his Spirit on ALL FLESH.
2. Look at Heb.1:1,2. God does not speak to us in these days in visions, and dreams. He speaks to us through his Son, who is revealed to us through His written revelation.
3. Prophesy was a temporary gift, mentioned in 1Cor.13:8-13, which ceased at the end of the first century. During the first century there was a partial fulfillment as there was a partial fulfillment in the pouring out of the Spirit on Pentecost. The greater fulfillment of this prophesy will come in the Millennial Kingdom.
4. At no time in the history of mankind have there been signs in heaven such as have been described in verse 19. Those will come just before the Kingdom starts with the Coming of Christ. They were not there at Pentecost. Joel's prophecy was not completely fulfilled then. It was a partial fulfillment.

 

[Iconoclast]

...you mean that you don't prayerfully approach the Scripture, and ask the Spirit to illuminate you? What is wrong with this? It would seem to me the thing to do when it comes to wanting to better understand what the Lord is saying through Scripture. Bible study, strictly on ones own intellectual abilities, is more dangerous than what you accuse me of, emotionalism! I'd choose spiritual illumination over intellectualism any day!

Every bible believing christian has the Spirit illuminate the word to them.
I never said otherwise. You are describing additional revealation outside of scripture......earlier you said you tossed out your study notes and just let the Spirit lead you....

To speak of the word of God as a spingboard does not demonstrate a proper view of what scripture is.

Furthermore....I showed where Paul quotes isa 28.....you blow it off saying I was trying to "Spin" things my way. Paul was given that by the Spirit of God to write for us,and you speak of it as my spin? I do not think you grasp the whole passage or the biblical meaning.

You say Paul spoke in tongues....yes he did...he was an Apostle. That does not have to do with your extra biblical claims.
DHK correctly points out how romans 8 shows another common false teaching which you will not really deal with.

Your theology takes you away from and outside scripture each time , looking for additional words, from a prophet, or tbn, or somewhere else.

I mention tbm as they teach that this bogus prayer tongue is a secret pray language that....SATAN CANNOT UNDERSTAND???? Who says this..as no one speaks in tongues to begin with..
That is what i would call ridiculous..yet as you say you can do what you think you need to:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

The Joel prophecy was to the Jews. Their sons and daughters would prophesy.

All scripture is for me, but not all scripture is to me.

AMY....if you study Joel 2 and 3 it speaks of all kinds of
people ,not the Jew only...

 

[righteousdude2]

Then...

The Joel prophecy was to the Jews. Their sons and daughters would prophesy.

All scripture is for me, but not all scripture is to me.

...Peter was merely quoting OT Scripture that had nothing to do with anything? OKAY, if that's what you believe! :BangHead:

 

[DHK]

...Peter was merely quoting OT Scripture that had nothing to do with anything? OKAY, if that's what you believe! :BangHead:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The message was primarily to the Jews, even to the very ones that had taken him and crucified him.
This was a feast day; the Day of Pentecost.
The place was the Temple. Present were approximately 100,000 Jews from more than 13 different nations that are listed in the chapter. Out of those 100,000 only 3,000 were saved. About 97,000 still remained in rebellion to the Lord. It was a Jewish feast that they had come to celebrate, thus his sermon was directed to the Jews. This historical context must always be kept in mind when interpreting Scripture.

Pentecost was a special historical event. It will never again be repeated.
The tongues were a sign to all of those unbelieving Jews (1Cor.14:21,22).

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks Icon!

Every bible believing christian has the Spirit illuminate the word to them.
I never said otherwise. You are describing additional revealation outside of scripture......earlier you said you tossed out your study notes and just let the Spirit lead you....

To speak of the word of God as a spingboard does not demonstrate a proper view of what scripture is.

Furthermore....I showed where Paul quotes isa 28.....you blow it off saying I was trying to "Spin" things my way. Paul was given that by the Spirit of God to write for us,and you speak of it as my spin? I do not think you grasp the whole passage or the biblical meaning.

You say Paul spoke in tongues....yes he did...he was an Apostle. That does not have to do with your extra biblical claims.
DHK correctly points out how romans 8 shows another common false teaching which you will not really deal with.

Your theology takes you away from and outside scripture each time , looking for additional words, from a prophet, or tbn, or somewhere else.

I mention tbm as they teach that this bogus prayer tongue is a secret pray language that....SATAN CANNOT UNDERSTAND???? Who says this..as no one speaks in tongues to begin with..
That is what i would call ridiculous..yet as you say you can do what you think you need to:wavey:

You and DHK have some good ponits. Well thought out and seemingly [at least to your side of the camp] sound. However, there are definite differences in how we are interpreting Scritpure, so let's just say that I plan to stay with what I believe to be true. Just as you are doing.

THEREFORE, I sincerely pray for a spiritual Détente! between us. :thumbs:

I know that this shouldn't get in the way of our cyber fellowship here on the BB, but if you want to let your differences get in the way of future fellowship, so be it. I can't do anything about what you plan to do when it comes to me. :BangHead:

On my side of the screen, you still have my prayerful support, thoughts and love. What you believe and stand for, doesn't in any way, cause a moral or spiritual conflict in how I view you or others that may think I'm Scripturally off base.

Remember: Most doors swing both ways, like this particular one. And while you hold to one teaching, I hold to another. IMHO - It is just so unfortunate that you had to resort to such heavy handed condemnation and judgment [of my sincerity - "Dude believes many things have happened to him EWF......." integrity and relationship - pure emotionalism - with God regarding how I received my gifts] in an attempt to back me into a spiritual/Biblical corner in seeing your way with the "Kill or cure" approach?

Your strong condemnation has not affected my theology in the slightest, and you should know that I am not losing sleep with the thought that you hold such a strong view and tendancy to condemn those who oppose you. The world is a big place, and we should all be able to live here and get along in a civil way. I pray this will be the end result of our differences. And I will promise you, I will never speak in tongues around you [should we ever meet for that cup of coffee while you're in my neck of the woods in California] or anyone else, nor will I attempt to push understanding of the gifts on anyone on this BB.

Like I've said before. What I have is strictly for my edification and spiritual enlightenment. As for others, God has to deal with them, as HE does with all His children, one-on-one! Selah!

Shalom!!!

 

[DHK]

Like I've said before. What I have is strictly for my edification and spiritual enlightenment. As for others, God has to deal with them, as HE does with all His children, one-on-one! Selah!

Shalom!!!

I hope you don't think that I was condemning you. This is a debate forum. And you are right that all of us hold our convictions very strongly. I was simply expounding the Word, or so I thought. No condemnation meant. Iron sharpens iron. It also gives us food for thought. Icono and I have locked horns a time or two as well. We live and learn.

 

[righteousdude2]

I Have NO Qulams With That.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The message was primarily to the Jews, even to the very ones that had taken him and crucified him.
This was a feast day; the Day of Pentecost.
The place was the Temple. Present were approximately 100,000 Jews from more than 13 different nations that are listed in the chapter. Out of those 100,000 only 3,000 were saved. About 97,000 still remained in rebellion to the Lord. It was a Jewish feast that they had come to celebrate, thus his sermon was directed to the Jews. This historical context must always be kept in mind when interpreting Scripture.

Pentecost was a special historical event. It will never again be repeated.
The tongues were a sign to all of those unbelieving Jews (1Cor.14:21,22).

I agree. Pentecost will never happen again! No argument there from me. It was a special, one time outpouring that allowed those in the Upper Room a "crash course" in different languages spoke by those gatherd in the courtyard and city for the holy holiday. I only wish God would have poured out His Spirit on me when I struggled with Spanish 101