How do you interpret "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?

[Van]

On and on the fiction continues. Foreknowledge does not refer to knowledge of the future, it refers to knowledge from the past being utilized in the present.

Note the verse [Revelation 13:8] does not say nor suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation. This truth can be inferred from 1 Peter 1:19-20.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.

Basing doctrine on mistaken translation is futile.

 

[Aaron]

There is no past, present and future in Heaven. That is a matter of Creation. But it's beyond our capacity to conceive of such an existence, so that's all one can say about it.

We know in part, and we prophesy in part.
​

There is a reality in the passage that we cannot fathom. But one inescapable conclusion is that the Cross was always the plan. It wasn't that God saw something was going to happen to His plan, and He provided for it. It was the plan.

All things were created by Him, and for Him.
​

The act of Atonement is the Central Act. It was acted out on this stage right here. And it was that act by which Christ merited His seat at the right hand of the Father, and for which He was given a name above all names.

One of the things we are given in Christ is eternal life. By definition that is a life with no beginning and no end. At what point in the 'time line' of God's existence was Christ begotten of the Father? He has always been the Son. He has always been seated at the right hand of the Father. He has always had a name that is above all names.

Christ, the same yesterday and today and for ever.
​

But it was the Atonement that merited those things. So, yes, in a very real way, Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. And in a very real way we are already seated with Him in heavenly places, Ephesians 2:6. This will soon be evident.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
​

 

[Dave G]

Sure I do. But for now I'm just trying to get a straight answer to my question.
Which one is your answer? You wrote two things:

Was he ACT-UALLY slain "before the foundation of the world", or "in these last times"?

In these last times.

 

[Dave G]

I think my Calvinist brethren realize the problem that Revelation 13:8 causes them. Just read back that thread and compare the interminable answers they have on other verses in other threads. Note the relative silence on this issue here.
No one has yet here faced up to post #7 and the fact that Revelation 13:8's slain from the foundation of the world was only enacted in time; just as the chosen of Ephesians 1:4 would have to be enacted in time, if you're going to interpret scripture with scripture.

Revelation 13:8 causes me no problem, George.

As I explained, God's choice of Christ to be slain from the foundation of the world was carried out in time.
God's choice of the sinner to salvation was not.
But since I don't seem to be getting through to you, I'll try another tack:

God's choice of the sinner to salvation before the foundation of the world was made then, and the choice resulted in those He foreknew being "called" by the Gospel in their lifetimes.
The choice itself was not made in time...it was made outside of time, and apart from anything man can contribute.
The results of that choice are then carried out in time.

Let's see the quote from post # 7 again:

Therefore, just as Christ was slain in time, so we we also were chosen in time.
It's just that both events were foreknown of God before/from the foundation of the world.
(And we haven't even touched on the from yet).

Ephesians 1:4 does not say the believer was chosen in time.
It says they were actually chosen "in Him" ( Christ ) before the foundation of the world.

The difference with what you are stating, and what I am stating is this:

1) You are stating that both events were determined to happen outside of time, and both events then occurred in time.

2) I am stating that one event was determined to happen outside of time ( Christ's sacrifice ) and was actually carried out in time.
The other event, the believer's choice by God to be placed within the body of Christ, actually happened outside of time...not in time.

The choice happened first, and God's will came to pass.
The believer was not chosen in time...they were chosen outside of time.

There is only a faint similarity between the two events.
Do you see the difference between what you are stating, and what I am stating?



I hope that helps to shed light on how I see the Scriptures laid out.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think my Calvinist brethren realize the problem that Revelation 13:8 causes them. Just read back that thread and compare the interminable answers they have on other verses in other threads. Note the relative silence on this issue here.
No one has yet here faced up to post #7 and the fact that Revelation 13:8's slain from the foundation of the world was only enacted in time; just as the chosen of Ephesians 1:4 would have to be enacted in time, if you're going to interpret scripture with scripture.

You are not within miles of the truth.

Creation of this world could not have taken place unless Jesus was in place as mediator and surety for God's elect.
Because of His role creation and the fall was allowed to come to pass.

 

[InTheLight]

There is no past, present and future in Heaven.

If this is true, explain the definite sequence of events happening in heaven with the seals, bowls, judgments, etc. They are definitely happening in sequential order. One happens after another which happens after this other one, etc. There is most definitely a past and future sequence of events occuring.

There is also the measurement of time in Heaven.

When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Revelation 8:1


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[Benjamin]

You are not within miles of the truth.

Creation of this world could not have taken place unless Jesus was in place as mediator and surety for God's elect.

It looks like you took a bad turn there, Icon. Here is a better road map for you:

"Creation of this world could would not have taken place unless Jesus was in place as mediator The Mediator and surety for God's elect bringing the promise of hope for all mankind."

John 3:16

 

[Dave G]

"Creation of this world could would not have taken place unless Jesus was in place as mediator The Mediator and surety for God's elect bringing the promise of hope for all mankind."

The hope for all mankind is represented in His chosen elect, people out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ).

All of mankind does not have to go to a hopeless eternity weeping and gnashing their teeth...
Mankind, as a race, will not go "in the dumpster".

Instead, He will save a seed...similar to Israel having a remnant ( Romans 9:27-29 ), the Gentile remnant will be grafted in.
"Whosoever believeth in Him" will not perish, but have everlasting life ( John 3:16, John 3:36 ).

 

[Aaron]

If this is true, explain the definite sequence of events happening in heaven with the seals, bowls, judgments, etc. They are definitely happening in sequential order. One happens after another which happens after this other one, etc. There is most definitely a past and future sequence of events occuring.

There is also the measurement of time in Heaven.

When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Revelation 8:1


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Earth is the reference, but you need to do better than to pull proof texts from apocalyptic literature to counter the point.

 

[Iconoclast]

It looks like you took a bad turn there, Icon. Here is a better road map for you:

"Creation of this world could would not have taken place unless Jesus was in place as mediator The Mediator and surety for God's elect bringing the promise of hope for all mankind."

John 3:16

I could have discussed it in person with you stopped for lunch off of the 129 exit near that mall with Dillard s. ... I would have helped you get it correct.

 

[InTheLight]

Earth is the reference, but you need to do better than to pull proof texts from apocalyptic literature to counter the point.

I need to do better than pull verses from the Holy Bible written by a disciple of Jesus Christ who experienced being in heaven? Seriously? What's the matter with you?

(Eagerly awaiting your annual diatribe against the Christmas song "Little Drummer Boy...")

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[Twiceborn]

A Calvinist would never say that election occurred in time.

Just so there's no misunderstanding of my view here:

Ephesians 1:4 says "according as he hath chosen us in him" not "according as he hath chosen us to be in him".

I believe that we are chosen in Him in time. This refers to the new birth. But we become the elect because God elected us to be the elect before the foundation of the world. Just like Christ became the lamb slain because God elected Him to be the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Benjamin]

The Determinist view disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator and His role is plainly in view, but they attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve their Determinist doctrines.

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist shamefully attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ah, more of those pesky “you”. But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

One need only honestly work through the text without his Determinist glasses to see the order of salvation.

First, we must hear the gospel (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:47; John 20:21; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:14-17).

Secondly, we must believe in Jesus (John 3:16; 6:29; 20:31; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10).

Thirdly, at this point we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit or born again (John 3:3-7; Romans 3:21-26; 4:24-5:1; 8:9, 15; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Galatians 3:13-14).

The true Gospel is a message of hope for ALL men:

Rom 3:21-27 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13 is:

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

The Determinist way is to attempt to change the Biblical order and would have to put regeneration before faith for salvation. Such a view is entirely backwards and contrary to God’s judgment - which is His way in truth! (Deut 32:4)

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

[Aaron]

I need to do better than pull verses from the Holy Bible written by a disciple of Jesus Christ who experienced being in heaven? Seriously? What's the matter with you?

(Eagerly awaiting your annual diatribe against the Christmas song "Little Drummer Boy...")

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Well, then I explain the half-hour and time references in the same vein as the sword in Jesus's mouth, His seven eyes, and HIm looking like a dead sheep.

 

[InTheLight]

Well, then I explain the half-hour and time references in the same vein as the sword in Jesus's mouth, His seven eyes, and HIm looking like a dead sheep.

Great, so you are admitting you have no discernment when it comes to scripture. Very refreshing and a nice change from your usual arrogance.

 

[Dave G]

The Determinist view disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator and His role is plainly in view, but they attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve their Determinist doctrines.

I disagree.

I for one agree wholeheartedly, that those who were chosen were chosen "in Him", just as Ephesians 1:4-5 states.
He is the Righteous Judge of all men, and will be on the throne on Judgment Day.

The order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13 is:

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

The order of being indwelt with the Holy Ghost is what is found in this passage.

 

[Dave G]

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist shamefully attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology.

The divine order of salvation is clearly presented in John 6:44 and John 6:64-65 as well as Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and Psalms 65:4.

Ephesians 1:13 merely reflects what happens when one of His elect believe on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins ( the Gospel of their salvation, see 1 Corinthians 15:1-7 ).
They are then sealed with His Spirit, who acts as Comforter and is the "earnest" or down payment of their inheritance:
Jesus Christ.

Eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ) is a precious gift, and it isn't given to everyone.

The Determinist way is to attempt to change the Biblical order and would have to put regeneration before faith for salvation.

The Biblical way is to affirm that, like Lydia was in Acts of the Apostles 16:14, God has opened the heart of all of His children, and enabled them to "hear" His words and confess His Son from the heart ( Romans 10:8-10, Romans 10:17 ).
Faith, as a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) is then given to them as the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of the new birth and sealing via the Holy Ghost.

Such a view is entirely backwards and contrary to God’s judgment - which is His way in truth!

Placing the act of belief before God's gracious act of making a person a new creature in Christ makes man his own saviour, and causes the Lord to bestow merit upon someone for either making the correct choice, or de-merit upon them for making the wrong choice.
It also contradicts Philippians 1:29 and several other passages, such as John 6:29, Acts of the Apostles 13:48 and John 10:26, to name a few.

Respectfully, making belief into a work that obligates God to save someone, is making salvation into a a market deal...
It is not the salvation spoken of in God's word.

The new birth is a miraculous thing that cannot be "triggered" by a man's actions...
It can only be granted by God and His Spirit, totally apart from the will and wishes of men ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).

That is what makes it salvation by grace, and not works.

 

[Dave G]

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Amen.

All His judgments, whether we agree with them or not, are righteous and holy.
He is without iniquity, especially if He chooses to have mercy on some, and not others ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).

He determines who is saved.
He does not leave that determination up to us.

If it were up to us, then we could potentially boast in something other than His mercy and grace...
Something like:

Our choice of Him.


May God bless you greatly, sir.

 

[Aaron]

Great, so you are admitting you have no discernment when it comes to scripture. Very refreshing and a nice change from your usual arrogance.

No, I'm saying you do not, which is why you take the half-hour literally. But I'm not going to get into a debate with you about Revelation. There is enough in the Gospels and the Epistles to establish what I've asserted. Take them to apocalyptic literature. Don't do it the other way around.

Me: 'Jesus was a man.'

You: 'Then how do you explain Rev. 5:6?"

 

[InTheLight]

No, I'm saying you do not, which is why you take the half-hour literally. But I'm not going to get into a debate with you about Revelation. There is enough in the Gospels and the Epistles to establish what I've asserted. Take them to apocalyptic literature. Don't do it the other way around.

Me: 'Jesus was a man.'

You: 'Then how do you explain Rev. 5:6?"

#4.