How do you interpret "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?

[percho]

I don't know if you are a Calvinist. Do you hold to reformed theology?

Anyway, most Calvinists staunchly oppose the idea of God looking down the corridors of time and then predestining something to happen. The problem is when it comes to Adam's sin, and God having planned to send a redeemer "before the foundation of the world", Calvinists are put into a box because if they reject the idea that God saw Adam would sin and then preemptively created a redemption plan, by necessity they have to accept that God caused Adam to sin, which of course they deny, but it is the logical conclusion to their theology.

Question?

Did the sin of the devil have anything to do with the creation of Adam?

 

[percho]

Like I said, I was certain you would deny God caused Adam to sin.

Do you likewise deny that God looked down through the corridors of time and saw that Adam would sin?

I like your debate.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:31

At the end of the seventh day was the creation completed? Adam who was created in the image of his creator and was inclusive in the very good? I believe yes to both. Yet!

For the creation was subjected to futility, (Vanity kjv, Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. Ecc 1:2) not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20 NKJV

Was that very good at that moment subjected to futility / vanity? Once again I believe, yes.

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:20,21

What kind of vessel did God need for Adam to be? Consider post 61.

What hope?

 

[percho]

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Manifested as what?

What was needed in order to destroy the devil and his works?

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14


Slain from the foundation of the world?

 

[George Antonios]

God foreknew the line of eventualities that would be actualized and was thus able to ensure, from the foundation of the world, that Christ would be slain. And so, God did not cause all these eventualities to occur, but in His infinite wisdom, He perfectly "played the board" so that human volition and His divine plan occurred in perfect harmony. In this sense, God predestinated that Christ would be slain, while those involved in Christ's death are completely responsible for their own actions.

To be clear, you just said that predestination is dependent on God's foreknowledge of man's freewill. Calvinists don't believe that. In their mind, predestination precedes foreknowledge, despite Paul telling them the contrary in Romans 8:29.

 

[George Antonios]

Revelation 13:8 causes me no problem, George.

As I explained, God's choice of Christ to be slain from the foundation of the world was carried out in time.
God's choice of the sinner to salvation was not.

That right there is an unequal way of interpreting Ephesians 1:4 and Revelation 13:8.
If the slaying of Revelation 13:8 was in time, then so was also the choosing of Ephesians 1:4.

 

[37818]

That right there is an unequal way of interpreting Ephesians 1:4 and Revelation 13:8.
If the slaying of Revelation 13:8 was in time, then so was also the choosing of Ephesians 1:4.

"Before" in Ephesians 1:4 precedes "from" in Revelation 13:8.

 

[George Antonios]

Just so there's no misunderstanding of my view here:

Ephesians 1:4 says "according as he hath chosen us in him" not "according as he hath chosen us to be in him".

I believe that we are chosen in Him in time. This refers to the new birth. But we become the elect because God elected us to be the elect before the foundation of the world. Just like Christ became the lamb slain because God elected Him to be the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

But he was slain in time in Revelation 13:8 therefore we were chosen in time in Ephesians 1:4. Guys the only reason you can't see the perfect parallel and interpret those two verses in an unequal way is because of the coloured spectacles of Calvinism.

 

[George Antonios]

"Before" in Ephesians 1:4 precedes "from" in Revelation 13:8.

That does little to answer. I would love to discuss the difference. But please explain your thought.

 

[George Antonios]

Guys, NNE has yet answered the QUESTION: If Revelation 13:8 means that Christ was slain in time, why does the choosing of Ephesians 1:4 mean that we were chosen before time? The verses are almost a perfect parallel and the verbs slain and chosen are in perfect correspondence, yet the Calvinistic interpretation of both is unequal.

Let me put it another way: IF Ephesians 1:4 had said "according as he hath slain us in him before the foundation of the world" would that mean that God had slain us before he created us?

 

[37818]

That does little to answer. I would love to discuss the difference. But please explain your thought.

"Before the foundation of the world" precedes "from the foundation of the world," as in Luke 11:50 in time and Hebrews 9:26 as with Revelation 13:8. "From the fundation of the world" occurs 7 times in the New Testament. "Before" 3 times, like in John 17:24 and 1 Peter 1:20. Ephesians 1:4.

 

[Dave G]

Guys the only reason you can't see the perfect parallel and interpret those two verses in an unequal way is because of the coloured spectacles of Calvinism.

George,
The only reason I can't see the perfect parallel, is because of what the words actually say:

Ephesians 1:4 says the choice happened before the foundation of the world, not in time.
God carries out the choice ( does what He determined to do ) that was made ( before the foundation of the world ), in our lifetimes.

Revelation 13:8 states that He was slain "from the foundation of the world".
His crucifixion was determined ( Acts of the Apostles 2:23 ) before the foundation of the world, and carried out in these last times.

God's choice of who to save was determined before the foundation of the world.
Those He chose were "called" in time ( Romans 8:29-30 ).

It's as simple as that.

NNE has yet answered the QUESTION: If Revelation 13:8 means that Christ was slain in time, why does the choosing of Ephesians 1:4 mean that we were chosen before time?

I've answered it twice, now.
Because they both mean exactly what they say.

 

[George Antonios]

I sincerely cannot see why you say that the chosen in Ephesians 1:4 happens before time:

Ephesians 1:4 says the choice happened before the foundation of the world, not in time.

Whereas you say that the slain of Revelation 13:8 happens in time:

Revelation 13:8 states that He was slain "from the foundation of the world".
His crucifixion was determined ( Acts of the Apostles 2:23 ) before the foundation of the world, and carried out in these last times.

Based on what within the verses themselves, do you place chosen (Eph.1:4) before time yet slain (Rev.13:8) in time when the verses read so similarly?

 

[Dave G]

I sincerely cannot see why you say that the chosen in Ephesians 1:4 happens before time:

Because the text does.

Whereas you say that the slain of Revelation 13:8 happens in time:

Again, because the words do.

Based on what within the verses themselves, do you place chosen (Eph.1:4) before time yet slain (Rev.13:8) in time when the verses read so similarly?

Read them carefully, paying particular attention to the words.

Ephesians 1:4 clearly says, "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world".
When was the choice made?

Before the foundation of the world.

 

[George Antonios]

Ephesians 1:4 clearly says, "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world".
When was the choice made?

Before the foundation of the world.

Now, why do you not apply that same exact line of reasoning to Revelation 13:8? Let me do it, as I have in a previous post:

Revelation 13:8 clearly says: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
When was the slaying done? From the foundation of the world.

So there, by the exact same logic, from a very similar verse, you get that Christ actually died from the foundation of the world, and then again in 33 A.D.

 

[Dave G]

Now, why do you not apply that same exact line of reasoning to Revelation 13:8?

Do you believe that Christ was actually put on the cross before 33 A.D.?
Or that I am saying that He was?

I hope not.

So there, by the exact same logic, from a very similar verse, you get that Christ actually died from the foundation of the world, and then again in 33 A.D.

I believe the words as they stand, not "logic".
Whatever God says, I believe it.

He says that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.
I see that later on, His crucifixion actually occurred in time.
See the "Gospels" of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, as well as 1 Corinthians 15:1-7.

However, nowhere do I see Scripture making the declaration that His choice of someone was in time...
Rather, that it was before the foundation of the world.

I don't work on implication, George...
I work on clear-cut declarations from Scripture.

 

[George Antonios]

But you applied a line of reasoning to Ephesians 1:4

Ephesians 1:4 clearly says, "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world".
When was the choice made?
Before the foundation of the world.

Now, would you please do the same exact thing you did above, to Revelation 13:8?

 

[George Antonios]

Again, because the words do.

Revelation 13:8 did not say it happened in time. It said from the foundation of the world.

 

[Dave G]

Revelation 13:8 did not say it happened in time. It said from the foundation of the world.

George...
How about looking at what other passages say, as well?

As I see it, focusing on two passages all by themselves does not do the whole of God's word justice.
I encourage you to examine everything that God has to say about each subject...
God choosing, and Christ being slain, and put together a "composite" with which to gain a fuller understanding of the two.

This is my final reply in this thread.


May God bless you sir.

 

[George Antonios]

George...
How about looking at what other passages say, as well?

As I see it, focusing on two passages all by themselves does not do the whole of God's word justice.
I encourage you to examine everything that God has to say about each subject...
God choosing, and Christ being slain, and put together a "composite" with which to gain a fuller understanding of the two.

This is my final reply in this thread.

May God bless you sir.

I whole-heartedly agree that one needs a comprehensive view, but the previous posts, which you readily discussed, focused on these two verses. And whereas you expounded Ephesians 1:4 one way, you refused to expound Revelation 13:8 in the same way. Why? Because it would undo the Calvinistic interpretation of Ephesians 1:4. Others in this thread also failed to apply the same interpretation to Revelation 13:8, so you weren't the only one.
This failure to apply the same exegesis to Revelation 13:8 that you do to Ephesians 1:4 illustrates the fact that Calvinists infuse Ephesians 1:4 with a pre-programmed theology.

 

[Twiceborn]

To be clear, you just said that predestination is dependent on God's foreknowledge of man's freewill. Calvinists don't believe that. In their mind, predestination precedes foreknowledge, despite Paul telling them the contrary in Romans 8:29.

I've addressed this in post #23.