How does a baby sin?

[Me2]

Howdy Helen,

You Started Speaking About Babies and Sin..
Their Born Into It. Their Body, Their Spirit, Their Environment..

I Said dont Worry..Their souls Are Preserved By God, Their Spirits Guaranteed To Be Back In Fellowship with God Because Jesus Died For ALL SIN...

Past, Present, Future..In The Body..In The Spirit..In Their environment..
All Means All..whether Myself or You Or Aliens From Another Planet's Sins....All Means All

You Say No, Jesus Died For Only The Intelligent, or the Faithful, or The Jew, or The Gentile,
Or The Babies, or The Ignorant, or The Deaf, or Blind, or Mute..Loopholes upon Loopholes

Jesus Died For The Sins of The World......All...., Big Sin, Little sins,Sins of omission, or Sins of Ignorance..All Sin..Now Everyone Now A Path To Become Reconciled back To God.

We're Talking About A Perfect Infinite God..Not A Human..
He Decided. Not A Human.
He's Perfect, No Mistakes or Accidents. No Accidents "after the Blueprints were Drawn Up"

He Died Perfectly, He Paid For Sin Perfectly, He Saved His Creation Perfectly....
No Sin Left Over Because Some Idiot wanted to "Hold Out" or "He Wanted To Go To Hell".
...He Agreed With Himself. Not Any Human Being. and He Made That Promise Before He Created The First "Perfect Atom".

Sermon On The Mount..

Judge Not ... What Measure You Mete, Will Be Meted.
You Judge With Your Attitude towards Others.
You Hold Out The "God Loves You ...If ".... Attitude to Others.
Religion Smacks Partiality In Everyones Face. Even yours.....The Soul That Sins shall Die....
Then By Your Decisions, Babies do go To "Hell".. no loopholes
The Way You Address The Nature and Plan Of God Invites Partiality In HIS Choice.
Thats Phariseeism..,"If Your Bad When You Die, You Go To A Bad Place...Hell.
and If Your Good Like Us And Follow These Laws You Get To Go To Heaven..."
And You Wonder Why Jesus Was Mad At These Guys ?.....Partiality

2 Choices, One God..that Makes God Partial...but He Aint.

You've wondered Why People Who Get Saved, Dont Want To Fellowship With You..
You Continually Hear The Preaching of the Partiality of God...Love, Love, Love...and oh well..a little Hate too.
(well, to tell you the truth,..God sends about 95% of his creation to Hell and punishes them forever..But other than that He's a cool God..Yay Us!)..and The pews are still empty..Why?

The Sermons You Are Hearing are Partial......God Is Not..He Desires Everyone To Be Saved.

God Is Infinite Love..He Loves Everybody

Me2

 

[Aaron]

John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

God's ways do not have to be justified to our fleshly minds. Looking upon the outward appearance infants certainly seem to be innocent--to us. But God looks upon the heart. It is the heart of sin that dooms us.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Babies. Wonderful creatures. Beautiful. So innocent. Helpless. Fragile. No sense of guilt at all.
When my children were still babies, I loved to listen to them goo and giggle and, yes, even the sound of their crying sounded like music to me.
I have 5 kids, and felt that way from kid#1 to kid#5.
And I used to think that all babies go to heaven, even as a Catholic who was taught "original" sin
(at that time, Catholics taught that babies first go to purgatory, depending on their age).
But in 1973 when God brought me to my Damascus road (and I only had kid#1 and kid#2 then) and I began reading the Word, I realized that no matter how lovely and innocent-looking babies are, they have this sin-nature just like everybody else which is what God rejected in Adam.
They are innocent, in looks and in deed, as far as we are concerned, but not as far as God is concerned.
So, now I was in a quandary.
Do all babies go to hell ? I looked at my kids and think, "what if they had died at birth". My 3rd kid, my first son, was born with his face blue from lack of oxygen because his umbilical was wrapped round his neck and I was there in the delivery room and remember thinking, "will this baby go to hell if he doesn't survive ?".
Today, all my children are believers, and all are firm in the doctrines of Grace and guess what, they came to know the doctrines of Grace even before God taught me thru His people.
So, do all babies go to hell ? Do all babies go to heaven ?
God knows those who are His, and known unto God are all His works from the beginning.

 

[Bartholomew]

Hello friends,

I've just been reading all the posts on this thread, and I've got the same problem regarding babies sinning as Helen has. Romans 5:12 says,

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Note that the verse doesn't say all men die because Adam sinned; but because they sinned. So, babies must sin because they die. I don't know how a baby sins; especially an unborn baby. But he/she must sin, because he/she can die.

You know, I used to do things I didn't know were sins. They didn't seem to be sins to me. OK, I had a conscince, but it wasn't working properly. Only through God and the Bible do I now know they were sins. Equally, heathens probably don't know worshipping stick gods is wrong - again they have a conscience, but it doesn't work all that well, particularly if they're brought up in that culture. I'm not making excuses for them, just saying that we might not know something is a sin, but that doesn't make it any less a sin. In the same way, we don't know what babies can do that is sin, but they must do some sin, otherwise they wouldn't be able to die.

Are dying babies saved? I don't know. But I do know that Jesus died for the sins of every man (sorry, Calvinists!

) Their debt is paid. People living before Christ could be saved, even though they didn't know about his death and ressurection (sorry, hyper-dispensationalists!

) If God could save people in the OT who couldn't know about the death and ressurection of Christ, then why can't he save 'aborted' babies who equally can't know the death and ressurection of Christ? The command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is given to those who can hear the gospel; not babies who died in the womb. Jesus said go and teach all nations; not dead babies.

I don't know the answer; but there are some thoughts.

Your friend and brother,

Bartholomew

 

[tyndale1946]

So how does a baby sin?... And does the equation come into effect when the baby reaches the age of accountability?... When is the age of accountability?... What does the age of accountability have to do with the sin nature?... When are we accountable to God when we reach that magic age or is the magic age... Conception!

What of those babies that never come to full term do they have a sin nature? If life begins at the moment of conception so does our sin nature and if it doesn't we are not sinners. We have no need of a Savior no matter if we never see the light of day and die in the womb or live to be one hundred. Sin is Sin and as the Apostle Paul says we are killed all the day long we are counted as sheep for the slaughter!... My Bible says ALL have sinned!... The whole Adamic race of mankind!... Brother Glen

[ October 19, 2002, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Helen]

Well, now, this is interesting. No one can tell me how a baby sins, but many of you are declaring that they do. What law do they break? The law tells us what sin is.

Glen, Romans 8:36, in which Paul says we are like sheep facing slaughter has nothing to do with our sin natures, but rather with our witness for Christ. "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." Not by Christ, by the world. So that verse has nothing to do with this.

Bartholomew, even if babies sin, they do not die spiritually because of it. Paul says very clearly that apart from the law, sin is dead (Romans 7:8). That means sin is powerless in the lives of babies, who cannot possibly know the law. That they are born alive spiritually is testified to by Jesus, who states the little ones are His, that such is the Kingdom of Heaven, and that the angels of the little ones always see the face of the Father. Babies are born spiritually alive, albeit with sin natures which influence their choices the same way they influence choices made by everyone else. But because they cannot help the way they behave, it is not held to their account. This is not because they do not sin, but because Jesus was also the sacrifice for unintentional and unknown sins, the reality of the sacrifice ordered in the Old Testament by God for the same.

And yes, rlvaughn, sin nature is active at least at birth if not before. That is not argued. But how on earth does a newborn sin, even if he or she is acting out a nature that is fallen? Where is the broken law?

It may seem a fine distinction, but having raised a profoundly retarded child, I have come to understand that it is an important distinction. Everyone has a sin nature, and everyone acts according to their sin nature. But without the law, sin is dead Paul says. That does not mean it is not there, but it does mean it is separated from the soul and has no power over it. It cannot kill. This person is then covered by Jesus, too.

God truly is not willing that one -- NOT ONE -- should perish. Therefore Jesus died for all sin. Every single little one, intentional or unintentional. All that is left, then, is for a person to accept or reject Christ.

A baby cannot do either. My son cannot do either. Jesus said the little ones are His.

For me, that is enough.

The only reason I keep harping on this is because of the willingness of some to tell questioners that everyone except their chosen group is condemned to hell. That is not the message of the Bible. That is the message of Calvin, and Calvin and the Bible part company on that one.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Helen,
Whether you or I like it or not, the doctrine of election is very much apparent in Holy scripture.
The term itself is "excluding". If all were elect, the term would be rendered illogical.

 

[Helen]

Scott, the way Calvinists use it is in contradiction to the Biblical message that all who believe are saved.

I don't mind calling it a 'holy paradox', but I will not ignore the passages such as Matthew 11:28 in favor of the Calvinist idea of what election means.

 

[tyndale1946]

Helen I also have retarted children and understand your concern but I learned a long time ago that Christ accepted me and not the reverse. Just like he accepts all his children... Even when we were dead in sin and died for us... That is why Grace to me is so amazing!... I shall now bow out of this discussion!... Brother Glen

 

[Mdterp]

No one can tell me how a baby sins

This has been answered quite a few times already, it seems that no matter what is said, you will not hear the truth or accept it.

We are Born into Sin

Life = Sin - A Sinful Nature, from the moment of life!

-Bill

 

[HankD]

I'm with Helen on this one.
Babies cannot sin (but they would if they could).
They have the nature but not the equipment (the ability to discern good from evil).

Does the fruit of an apple tree make it an apple tree?
No, long before the fruit appears it is an apple tree by nature.
The fruit is confirmation.

Since there are no deeds to condemn the little one, I believe (my opinion) that God regenerates them at their death should they die as an infant.

HankD

[ October 19, 2002, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Helen:
Well, now, this is interesting. No one can tell me how a baby sins, but many of you are declaring that they do. What law do they break?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Thou shalt not covet.

And in breaking those they have broken all the others.

 

[Helen]

Thank you, Hank.

Bill, if life = sin, then you are saying that Jesus Christ Himself is sin, for He is the way, the truth, and the LIFE.

In the meantime, I am not arguing sin nature. I'm a mother. I know better!

But no one can tell me what a baby actually does that is a sin. The sin itself. Not the nature, but the sin. The closest anyone got was in saying 'anger.' But anger by itself is not a sin. Does a baby sin in its anger -- if, in fact, anger is what it is feeling?

 

[Chet]

Helen said:

The only reason I keep harping on this is because of the willingness of some to tell questioners that everyone except their chosen group is condemned to hell. That is not the message of the Bible. That is the message of Calvin, and Calvin and the Bible part company on that one.

Right from the beginning of this thread I read this:

What does one say to the Christian couple? What comfort can I possible offer?.. The couple asked me directly if their infant son would be in heaven. I don't know is not a very comforting answer. A long diatribe on Calvinistic theology would not suffice. What does a young man, new to ministry, say?.. Thankfully, I never faced the identical situation again over 56 years...You may call me wrong, but my response at the time was: I believe that a loving God would see this infant child of believing parents safely on the distant shores of heaven. Had they been unsaved, by confession, I might have had a different answer. I suppose I was drawing on Calvin's covenantal theology at this point. All the elect will be saved, and the rest passed by..
Sometimes the best theological scheme falls short in a pastoral setting. What are we to do?
I draw on my best knowledge of the nature of God and make my own application.

Then I read many good examples of Scripture clearly declaring that we have inherited a sin nature , and have inherited the result of that sin nature...death. But have yet to see an example of a baby sinning. It is one thing to know that babies have a sin nature, but another to see that sin spring forth and manifest itself.

Then later and at this point of the thread we read this:

Helen, Whether you or I like it or not, the doctrine of election is very much apparent in Holy scripture. The term itself is "excluding". If all were elect, the term would be rendered illogical.

So, the reason Helen is having to reiterate her points, in that babies do not go to hell, is because of some misconceptions of what the terms "election" and "predestination" mean. And to stay faithful to a presumed ideology that God picks some for heaven and leaves the rest to die in their sins must be reconciled. It became an immediate defensive stand. So the sacrifice of the teaching of Scripture concerning this has been committed. Even to the point of telling questioners that some babies go to hell. I agree with you Helen, this grieves me.

To the first quote, What does one say to the Christian couple? The truth scripturally. And that truth does not change if they were non-Christians. Do you need to seek out what your reformed position assumes on Scripture? My goodness NO!. The answer is taught in Scripture.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
Well, now, this is interesting. No one can tell me how a baby sins, but many of you are declaring that they do. What law do they break?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Thou shalt not covet.

And in breaking those they have broken all the others.</font>[/QUOTE]Whoa, Aaron! What gods does a baby have before God?

How can a babe in arms DIShonor his or her father or mother?

And coveting has to do with another person's property. All that baby wants is to be fed, clean, loved, and rested. This is sin?

 

[Zebedee]

If you could see into their hearts they would be just as corrupt as adult hearts.

 

[HankD]

A little one has not the discernment to know that its self-serving temper tantrum is evil.

Sin is therefore not imputed.

HankD

 

[Chet]

rlvaughn

The context of Ps. 58 is in regard to unrighteous judges who where wicked and destructive in their work. David was asking God to destroy them. In this psalm David makes a point that from birth these wicked judges went astray. Here is the passage from perhaps two better translations:

Ps 58:1-6
Do you rulers indeed speak justly?
Do you judge uprightly among men?
2 No, in your heart you devise injustice,
and your hands mete out violence on the earth.
3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
4 Their venom is like the venom of a snake,
like that of a cobra that has stopped its ears,
5 that will not heed the tune of the charmer,
however skillful the enchanter may be.

6 Break the teeth in their mouths, O God;
tear out, O LORD, the fangs of the lions!
NIV

Ps 58:1-6
Do you indeed speak righteousness, O gods?
Do you judge uprightly, O sons of men?
2 No, in heart you work unrighteousness;
On earth you weigh out the violence of your hands.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth.
4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent;
Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear,
5 So that it does not hear the voice of charmers,
Or a skillful caster of spells.

6 O God, shatter their teeth in their mouth;
Break out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD.
NASU

Perhaps the clearest understanding could be derived from the NASB. From this I read it to mean the wicked are estranged from the womb (sin nature). That those who speak lies went astray from birth. The origin of these wicked men can be traced back to their birth, thus they had a sin nature.

I do not read this to mean that a baby can deceive his/her mother in any way. I can’t possibly believe that David would mean here that a baby can speak, or communicate a lie. Our sin nature is described in Galatians 5 as drunkenness, idolatry, witchcraft ect... A baby cannot have these sins either. But he/she can have a sin nature, and does.

Speaking of Gentiles Paul wrote:

Rom 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
NIV

Appling this to humanity, there is no way that a baby can know or understand the law. Nor can a baby know or understand their consciences. They are not developed. Therefore, I can’t see anywhere how a baby can sin.

With that said, we do not go to hell because of our sin, or sin nature. People go to hell because of the rejection of Jesus Christ as their needed savior. Once again babies are exempt, they do not understand their need for a savior, even though they do need a savior. Jesus is their savior. They will go to heaven.

 

[Chet]

Don't everybody post at once . Hot topic!

 

[Mdterp]

Bill, if life = sin, then you are saying that Jesus Christ Himself is sin, for He is the way, the truth, and the LIFE

I hope you know that Jesus was sent to earth and lived without sin to save man, comeon stop trying to stomp this in the ground.

What I was saying by Life=Sin is towards MAN and our sinful nature (I believe you knew what I meant). Where does it say that it takes action to sin? So if we keep quiet and live in a cave forever by ourselves we are without sin? I hardly think so.

When we are brought into this "World" we already have the sinful nature (does not require actions).