How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy

[Iconoclast]

hasn't it though been that God ALWAYS has His covenants based upon Grace, as NONE were able to keep the law, and the Law was not even in place until Moses?

And doesn't the new Covenant fulfull/supercede ALL prior Covenants between God and man anyways?

No not all covenants supercede others. The Noahic covenant was not superceded, God will never destroy the earth with a flood again.

The Abrahamic covenant is not superceded in the fact that the land was promised to Abraham and his seed forever, they have yet to possess it all but they will in the Messianic Kingdom.

really?

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

The Davidic covenant is not superceded by another, David was promised that his son would reign over Israel from his throne as Messiah. That too has yet to come to pass but will in the Millinial Kingdom.

really?

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The Adamic covenant was not superceded a saviour would come to pay the penalty for the sins of mankind. Faith was required for salvation and grace was the means "grace through faith" saved Adam and Eve and everyone who has ever been saved.

So no one covenant does not supercede the other and Grace through faith has always and will always be the means of Slavation for all mankind.[/QUOTE]

 

[JesusFan]

The Naoahic covenant is not just for Israel, Noah was not an Israelite but through his son Shem came the Jewish race.

There is the Mosaic covenant again with Israel.

There is as I stated the Adamic in which a savior was promised and by grace through faith all mankind can be saved. The savior came as promised and salvation remained the same by Grace through Faith.

God has and always will deal with mankind because of His grace and salvation has and always will require Faith. Adam, Noah, Abraham, David and all O.T. saints looked forward to the saviour who was coming, the promised one and because they believed in the coming Saviour that faith was counted unto them for righteousness, Grace was stil the saving agent. We look backward to the saviour who has come Jesus Christ and we place our faith in Him as the payment for our sins. Our faith is counted unto us for righteousness and grace is still the agent of salvation.

Isn't the Christian of NT tiimes though ONLY under the new Covenant as the relationship between us and God now?

that Jesus is the "Amen and The yes" to us as believers to ALL the promises of God!

 

[DHK]

Isn't the Christian of NT tiimes though ONLY under the new Covenant as the relationship between us and God now?

that Jesus is the "Amen and The yes" to us as believers to ALL the promises of God!

Believers are under a "New Covenant." It is compared to an "Old Covenant" in the Book of Hebrews. But that doesn't negate all other covenants. And it doesn't negate covenants that are given specifically to the Jewish nation. They are still Jews. We do not believe in Replacement Theology. And their promises still remain intact. The promise given to Noah will never be rescinded. God is not going to destroy this world with a flood. Period! That was a covenant made between God and Noah and the rainbow as a sign of the covenant. The whole Bible must be looked at.

 

[JesusFan]

Believers are under a "New Covenant." It is compared to an "Old Covenant" in the Book of Hebrews. But that doesn't negate all other covenants. And it doesn't negate covenants that are given specifically to the Jewish nation. They are still Jews. We do not believe in Replacement Theology. And their promises still remain intact. The promise given to Noah will never be rescinded. God is not going to destroy this world with a flood. Period! That was a covenant made between God and Noah and the rainbow as a sign of the covenant. The whole Bible must be looked at.

So its Covenants between God and the Jews/world in general/ and the Church through New Covenant?

 

[DHK]

So its Covenants between God and the Jews/world in general/ and the Church through New Covenant?

If you study the Book of Hebrews it always refers to a "New Covenant" which is a better covenant. The Hebrews still have their Old Covenant. When a Jew becomes a believer the Old Covenant is done away with. But those covenants are not the only ones in the Bible.
Someday Jesus will sit on the Throne of David--the Davidic Covenant.
The Noahic Covenant is still here. God has not destroyed this world.

 

[revmwc]

No not all covenants supercede others. The Noahic covenant was not superceded, God will never destroy the earth with a flood again.

The Abrahamic covenant is not superceded in the fact that the land was promised to Abraham and his seed forever, they have yet to possess it all but they will in the Messianic Kingdom.

really?






The Davidic covenant is not superceded by another, David was promised that his son would reign over Israel from his throne as Messiah. That too has yet to come to pass but will in the Millinial Kingdom.

really?






The Adamic covenant was not superceded a saviour would come to pay the penalty for the sins of mankind. Faith was required for salvation and grace was the means "grace through faith" saved Adam and Eve and everyone who has ever been saved.

So no one covenant does not supercede the other and Grace through faith has always and will always be the means of Slavation for all mankind.

[/QUOTE]

For your first really on Israel never fully possessing the land we see Judges 3: 1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan;
2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof;
3 Namely, five lords of the Philistines, and all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon, from mount Baalhermon unto the entering in of Hamath.
4 And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites:

It appears they dwelt amoung the land with other nations, never fully conquering those nations they were commanded to utterly destroy.

The Davidic covenant seen in:
2 Samuel 7:8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who am I, O Lord GOD? and what is my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?
19 And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O Lord GOD; but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And is this the manner of man, O Lord GOD?
20 And what can David say more unto thee? for thou, Lord GOD, knowest thy servant.

And in:
Psalms 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah

Notice verse 34 God will not break his covenant with David. The rule of the Davidic family will be as a faithful witness in heaven.

Riterated to Mary in: Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Notice especially verse 33, this has yet to happen.

Then Revelation 20 we see the King on the Millineal Throne in Jerusalem:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Christ reigning 1000 years upon this earth. We see nothing that says the destruction of Jerusalem would begin the Kingdom but if it did then what is the period of time we live in? Once the1000 year Kingdom has ended then we see:
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

So are you saying we are now in the New Jerusalem? On the new heaven and earth. Because if Christ came in 70 A.D. the Kingdom would have lasted 1000 years with as Revelation 20 tells us in verse 6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" that the believers would reign with him and be priest for 1000 years. So what is the period we are living in?

 

[Iconoclast]

So are you saying we are now in the New Jerusalem? On the new heaven and earth.

Jesus reigns from the Jerusalem which is above ......now.....[already]

The new Jerusalem comes down from heaven on the last day, [not yet]

The new heaven and new earth I am still working on. I have always been taught that that was just the eternal state....but then I saw where John Owen and others understood it as the Kingdom reign brought down to earth by Jesus....so I am still working on how 2 Pet.3 relates to Isa 65.....Isa 66

Revmac....It is an important subject and our future...so i am going to look at all the options....not quite settled on this one

Dr. John Owen On
The "New Heavens and Earth"
(2 Peter 3:13).......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The apostle makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was destroyed, but only men that liveth on the earth; and the apostle tells us (ver. 7) of the heaven and earth that were then, and were destroyed by water, distinct from the heavens and the earth that were now, and were to be consumed by fire; and yet as to the visible fabric of heaven and earth they were the same both before the flood and in the apostle's time, and continue so to this day; when yet it is certain that the heavens and earth, whereof he spake, were to be destroyed and consumed by fire in that generation. We must, then, for the clearing of our foundation a little, consider what the apostle intends by the heavens and the earth in these two places.
' 1. It is certain that what the apostle intends by the world, with its heaven, and earth (vers. 5, 6), which was destroyed ; the same, or some-what of that kind, he intends by the heavens and the earth that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire (ver. 7) ; otherwise there would be no coherence in the apostle's discourse, nor any kind of argument, but a mere fallacy of words.
' 2. It is certain that by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world; and therefore the destruction intimated to succeed by fire is not of the substance of the heavens and the earth, which shall not be consumed until the last day, but of person or men living in the world.
'3. Then we must consider in what sense men living in the world are said to be the world, and the heavens and earth of it. I shall only insist on one instance to this purpose among many that may be produced: Isa. li. 15, 16. The time when the work here mentioned, of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God was when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state; then He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And since it is that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that languaue which seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isa. xxxiv. 4, which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like also is affirmed of the Roman Empire (Rev. vi. 14), which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Saviour Christ's prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. xxiv.) He sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-
'(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of tile Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them.
'(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28. ' This being the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth continued in them.
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.
'There is no outward constitution nor frame of things in government or nations, but it is subject to a dissolution, and may receive it, and that in a way of judgment. If any might plead exemption, that, on many accounts, of which the apostle was discoursing in prophetical terms (for it was not yet time to speak it openly to all) might interpose for its share.'*





* Dr. Owen's Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11. Works, folio, 1721.

...............
I will post the rest in another post

 

[Iconoclast]

revmac,you asked;

. Because if Christ came in 70 A.D.

I do not believe Jesus came literally and bodily like he will at the second coming....70 ad was a "coming in judgement" upon Jerusalem and apostate Israel.


the Kingdom would have lasted 1000 years with as Revelation 20 tells us in verse 6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" that the believers would reign with him and be priest for 1000 years. So what is the period we are living in?

I along with all post mill ...and amill brethren believe the thousand years to signify the fulness of the time period as you know......like when it says the Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills....

We are living in the Kingdom of God now....Jesus is ruling in Heaven and on earth ruling in the midst of His enemies.....many of them say....

12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded

The gospel is going worldwide to harvest each and every lost sheep...the gospel is always victorious

 

[revmwc]

revmac,you asked;


We are living in the Kingdom of God now....Jesus is ruling in Heaven and on earth ruling in the midst of His enemies.....many of them say....



The gospel is going worldwide to harvest each and every lost sheep...the gospel is always victorious

Yes but their is a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Millinial Reign of the Jewish Messiah, the Jews believed in the literal earthly reign of the Messiah. They were looking for that and overlooked what Daniel said about the Messiah being cut off. They believed in a Messianic Kingdom that was coming. John says it will be a literal 1000 year reign and then the New Jerusalem comes down and rest upon the New Earth with a New Heaven.
What is missed by many and a very interesting passage is in Revelation 19.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Now notice this is Christ coming in Judgement of the Gentile nations. Which I believe has yet to happen. Next notice He brings with Him an army clothed in white raiment. Who is said to have white raiment in scripture?
Notice Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
and 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
coupled with Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

All point to the believers of the church revelation 19 is very clear the bride (i.e. the church) is clothed in White raiment and then the army coming with Christ in Revelation 19:14 says they are "clothed in fine linen, white and clean". So now the question when did the church, the bride go to be with Him in heaven in order to come back to earth with Him. If you consider yourself part of the Bride then you will be with Him when He returns, John was very clear on this in Revelation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Revmac,

Yes but their is a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Millinial Reign of the Jewish Messiah

In premill dispensationalism yes there is

In post and amill no there is not

the Jews believed in the literal earthly reign of the Messiah. They were looking for that and overlooked what Daniel said about the Messiah being cut off. They believed in a Messianic Kingdom that was coming

here is a staunch amill professor...opposing the postmill men of today; he deals with this idea called jewish dreams
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/jewish_dreams.html


revmac.....this idea so prominent in dispensationalism [jewish messiah]
does not fit all of scripture as well as the other positions....

in other words....what about all the saints before Israel was a nation?
Do they have a Christ also??? sure they do.

Physical Israel was elected by God as a type or shadow of the true Israel which has now come to earth from the Kingly reign of the Lord Jesus Christ from the heavenly reality!
That is why our citizenship is said to be in heaven....now
What the Jews did not understand was the nature of the Kingdom.

At this point I do not believe dispensationalism has the correct view of the kingdom either....that is why I am feeling much more comfortable with the puritan/reformer understanding of the kingdom rule of Jesus...right now.

RM...if I am wrong in this I will be okay with whatever manifests itself,
pre
historic pre
post
a

I like the view of the postmill in that they stress holy ,kingdom living now, and pressing forth with the great commission now.
Whatever view is correct needs to do this......not hide like a turtle,or ostritch, waiting to be resecued from a one world gov.antichrist..who wants to take my bible away.
I have been in both kinds of churches. In my experience it seems as if those who still have the pre-mill prophecy sweet tooth spend more time looking for the mark of the beast, or who is the anti-christ.....then Jesus clear commands to serve Him in a holy -servant -son relationship.
I am pretty sure that is not your case, or that not all pre-mill follow this pattern....Johnny Mac is the prime example I would guess.....but let me ask you REVMAC....have you seen what I am talking about?

 

[revmwc]

Revmac,


In premill dispensationalism yes there is

In post and amill no there is not


here is a staunch amill professor...opposing the postmill men of today; he deals with this idea called jewish dreams
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/jewish_dreams.html


revmac.....this idea so prominent in dispensationalism [jewish messiah]
does not fit all of scripture as well as the other positions....

in other words....what about all the saints before Israel was a nation?
Do they have a Christ also??? sure they do.

Physical Israel was elected by God as a type or shadow of the true Israel which has now come to earth from the Kingly reign of the Lord Jesus Christ from the heavenly reality!
That is why our citizenship is said to be in heaven....now
What the Jews did not understand was the nature of the Kingdom.

At this point I do not believe dispensationalism has the correct view of the kingdom either....that is why I am feeling much more comfortable with the puritan/reformer understanding of the kingdom rule of Jesus...right now.

RM...if I am wrong in this I will be okay with whatever manifests itself,
pre
historic pre
post
a

I like the view of the postmill in that they stress holy ,kingdom living now, and pressing forth with the great commission now.
Whatever view is correct needs to do this......not hide like a turtle,or ostritch, waiting to be resecued from a one world gov.antichrist..who wants to take my bible away.
I have been in both kinds of churches. In my experience it seems as if those who still have the pre-mill prophecy sweet tooth spend more time looking for the mark of the beast, or who is the anti-christ.....then Jesus clear commands to serve Him in a holy -servant -son relationship.
I am pretty sure that is not your case, or that not all pre-mill follow this pattern....Johnny Mac is the prime example I would guess.....but let me ask you REVMAC....have you seen what I am talking about?

I have seen some specualte and guess even seen those who said it was Henry Kissinger back in the day.
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

This beast shall come and war with the Saints until the Ancient of days (Christ) comes and destroys Him and sets up His Kingdom. This is not Christ coming against Israel in judgement but against the gentile world power. Notice in verse 25 this beast or world leader will rule the earth for a time, times and 1/2 a time.
Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things
Gives more information about him, something many folks miss or I feel they miss, notice "nor the desire of women" he will not be married and I believe he will be as many of the folks in San Fransisco to term it where we will understand.
The problem that the post-mil, amils must deal with is the church saints coming with Christ at His second advent. The army that comes with Christ, is said to be in fine linen, clean and white, Rev. 19 14, that as we see is a reference to belivers. So as belivers there should be no fear of living for God or someone coming to take our bibles away, if as Pre-Mil, Pre-Trib system teaches the church and we as believers will be kept from the time of tribulation. It (the trib) will be the culmination of Daniels 70 weeks of years, the 7 years that is referenced throughout scripture and this thread. Christ will return in His ressurected body with an Army clothed in fine linen clean and white. He will set His feet on the Mount of Olives and it will split in half Zechriah tells us and He will conquer the nations and rule from Zion. We shall rule with Him, the greater our service for Him on earth the greater our eternal reward and position in the Messianic Kingdom.
As for Enoch and the other anti-deluvians they too will share in all of this, and the Covenant with Adam covers them with the promised savior.

 

[thomas15]

I like the view of the postmill in that they stress holy ,kingdom living now, and pressing forth with the great commission now.

Two questions:

1. Which evangelical christian theological camp(s) do not stress holy, kingdom living now and do not press forth with the great commission?

2. Why is it that here were are 100+ posts and no preterist has been even willing to attempt to answer the OP question?

 

[DHK]

2. Why is it that here were are 100+ posts and no preterist has been even willing to attempt to answer the OP question?

This is a very good question. Let's look at the OP again:

Earlier Isaiah had said about Messiah:
Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This has been fulfilled partially and the fulfillment was literal. How would you determine the second part to mean a spiritual fulfillment in 70 A.D. if the first part as we know was literal. Achild was born and it was a son named Jesus. But the balance hasn't been fulfilled. Futurist as you call us believe it will be fulfilled literally. The first part has and Isaiah 53 was a literal fulfillment. What determines the prereist interpretation of a metaphorical (spiritual) fulfillment?

We know that Christ came a first time, as per Isa.9:6
But when has "the government been upon his shoulders," as in the very same verse??

 

[thomas15]

of course DHK you are correct. And if the "already, not yet" theory on the kingdom is correct, it would mean that the King (Jesus) is ruling over a partial kingdom at best and is not in full control of the realm. This is of course unacceptable to those who believe that the King will rule with an iron scepter, making this Kingdom a future entity by default.

DHK, I also wanted to mention that I agree with you where you equate some of the preterist thinking as in line with the Jehavah Witnesses thinking. Of course the theology is different but the thinking that gets one there is the same. For example, JWs and pretersits both, inspite of a lack of historical and Biblical support think that Jesus has already returned and we are in the Kingdom now. I think it is ironic that CRI is run by a man who is preterist and yet he cannot see his own error.

 

[Iconoclast]

of course DHK you are correct. And if the "already, not yet" theory on the kingdom is correct, it would mean that the King (Jesus) is ruling over a partial kingdom at best and is not in full control of the realm. This is of course unacceptable to those who believe that the King will rule with an iron scepter, making this Kingdom a future entity by default.

Jesus rules over His KIngdom right now.The Kingdom is growing.
He is in full control.He rules with a rod of Iron.


He uses man [the church] to spread the Kingdom

5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

All the kingdom parables show that it takes time for growth.

There is a major difference between partial preterists, and full preterists. Those who deny PP are in error. The Kingdom has began and is growing.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus rules over His KIngdom right now.The Kingdom is growing.
He is in full control.He rules with a rod of Iron.


He uses man [the church] to spread the Kingdom


All the kingdom parables show that it takes time for growth.

There is a major difference between partial preterists, and full preterists. Those who deny PP are in error. The Kingdom has began and is growing.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[thomas15]

Jesus rules over His KIngdom right now.The Kingdom is growing.
He is in full control.He rules with a rod of Iron.


He uses man [the church] to spread the Kingdom

Explain the medieval church as part of the kingdom and the reason(s) for the protestant reformation. Educate us on why the seven churches in Revelation, consisting of born again believers were still subject to judgement. While you are at it, take a shot at answering the OP question.