How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy

Iconoclast, even if one buys into the replace theologians concept that the church is the true Israel (which I don't), you still have not answered DHK's question. If the church is Israel, when did those of the elect under the preterist scheme stop hungering, thirsting, when did the sun and heat stop making us uncomfortable, and so forth?

 

Thomas,
The church never replaces Israel.....we are grafted in..Romans 11

Not all Israel was of Israel. Unbelieving Jews are out. The believing remnant and believing gentiles form the new Holy nation ex19 1 pet 2...the new exodus... new Israel...new promised land.

The blessings are primarily in the spiritual realm until the last day.
LIKE THIS THOMAS;

13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
and this;
he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

None of this supports your earlier false claim.

 

DHK,
You get very emotional in your posts,and yet you are non responsive at the same time.

DHK...I understand how you can say this..I used to say it also.
It does make sense when you look at it...
I will even go so far as to say...it might not be fully correct but you cannot say it does not make sense.

Your main error is right here:

really....lets see who sticks with the word of God..and who speculates??

DHK ..i explained the mark of the beast using Ezk 9...also the fathers name in the forehead.... you reject ezk 9 with double talk....

DHK... try and stay in the bible, and use the bible to explain what is the mark of the beast.....lets see what you've got.......not a laser beam ,or a credit card.... you say....speculations are not for me....
so when Hal lindsey describes apache helicopters out of rev 9...you rejected that?

without wild outside the bible speculation...you have no dispy view...thats why i now reject it...
it s false rebuilt temple, false animal sacrifices, gentiles fawning over apostate jews, one world conspiracy theories,

 

Failure of Preterism

Friends,

Preterism fails to deal with the reality that God will not display His vengeance and wrath upon the wicked until the last "martyr has been killed who must be killed".
Only at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet will God resurrect and reward "the Prophets and Saints, both small and great and destroy the destroyers of
the earth"!
Rev.6:9-11; Rev.11:15-18.
Mel at www.lastday.net

 

Some would say that that wrath was poured out on the 70ad judgement.
In one of the letters to the churches one of the martyrs was named.

Do you see how this seems to be addressed to those living at that time.? Do you know anyone named Antipas today??

The days of vengenace....
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



Notice vs 22...all things written....where were the days of vengenance spoken of...Deut 32
35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

38Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

41If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

42I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

 

I am not emotional. I have given you a question based on a portion of Scripture which you cannot answer unless you allegorize the entire passage which is unacceptable. It is unacceptable to deny Scripture through spritualizing its truths.

The J.W.'s can "make sense" out of spiritualizing the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I can't, and I can't make sense out of your spiritualizing of Scripture either.

No double talk. Read chapter 48 first. Get the context. It is not double-talk to say that Ezekiel is one of the most apocalyptic books in the Bible and uses many signs and symbols to get across its message. It is not double-talk that the word "mark" does not mean the same thing in every passage that it is used. There is no reason to take the word "mark" in Ezekiel 49 and make it mean the same as the mark of the beast in Revelation 13. That is a wild stretch of the imagination. The two are not even connected.

The context of Ezekiel 49 is a judgement on Judah and it even gives that context as being historical at that time, not future as in Revelation 13. You can't fit the events of Revelation back in time to an era ca. 700 B.C. Impossible!

Yes, I reject such speculations. I never gave into that. I don't read into the Bible that which is not there.

Garbage! Just because you have heard some bad teaching from a dispensational point of view doesn't mean all dispenasational point of view.
Harold Camping is a Calvinist. Therefore all Calvinists hold to views just like Harold Camping. Am I to come to that conclusion? That is what you are doing!!

Whatever you say Mr. Camping!

 

Iconoclast, you are indeed a replacement theologian. By claiming for yourself that which was promised to another is ....replacement. Why would you want to deny that of which is plain as day to those reading your posts?

It is obvious that you have not looked at the New Covenant as outlined in places like Jer ch 31. This is not a spiritual existance. Jesus did not say the new covenant is a "spiritual nation" in the upper room discourse, rather he ratified the terms of what was previously promised. And Paul, speaking to the Romans noted that the gentiles could be grafted out just as easy as they were grafted in. You disagree? And just how is a "spiritual graft" performed in a Biblical sense anyway?

A question preterism cannot answer is grafted into what? Another question preterism cannot answer is what makes them so sure that Jehovah will not change his mind about the church and graft a third party in, and cast off the gentile church? Is the gentile church any better than the Israelities when it comes to doing the will of God? I'm not at all convinced we are any better, in-fact, given the resources we have I think we are making a real hash out of things.

But the real big question preterism cannot answer is who is and when did the man of sin enter the temple and proclaim himself to be god? (2 thes ch 2)

 

Thomas,

you say....

Thomas....I believe you error right here at the start when you say.....

By claiming for yourself that which was promised to another is ....replacement..

Thomas the promise is to all the seed of Abraham....Why do you then say it was promised to another?

[QUOTE14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ][/QUOTE]

The promise is to all who believe JEW or Gentile....

So the promise was made to me also...and everyone who believes.
Then you say

Simple.....by new birth we are placed into the Covenant of Grace...as it was promised from Gen 3:15, to Abraham, Issac, Jacob...to David...

I know that dispensational teaching likes to say they like literal teaching...but we are not literal branches of a literal olive tree. Believers are grafted into the spiritual promises of the covenant.

Jesus died a covenant death for His elect...those who are children of the promise.

 

There are many more than just one covenant. Many of the covenants to the Jews still remain to this day. We were grafted in. That means we partake of the blessings of the tree. The covenant was still made to Israel.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. (Exodus 31:12-17)

Read through this passage carefully. The Sabbath is a sign of a perpetual covenant given between Jehovah and the nation of Israel and their generations forever. It was never given to Gentile believers, never.
We don't keep the Sabbath (Saturday) therefore. It is given to Israel.
If the the covenant is ours to keep, why don't you worship on Saturday instead of Sunday. You are not consistent in your theology.

 

REVMAC,

I was taught the "late date" of revelation...95-96 ad....
Others have offered support for an early date...before 68 ad...I am not certain of the date.....but an early date would be a strong support for the partial preterist.

Why if it is 96 ad is John told to measure the temple??? If it had been destroyed already???/

This fits the partial preterist explanation...put forth in Chiltons days of Vengeance...
here it is...

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.pdf
I have not seen this work refuted yet....I am still studying it out...but someone needs to deal with this kind of teaching.....
The date of the book or Revelation is important...I will say that.:thumbs:

Nothing in these letters says this is a 7yr tribulation......This tribulation was the tribulation of MT 24 spoken about 70 ad....pray that your flight be not on the sabbath....not something still in the future for us.

The kingdom has begun and is spreading like the growth of the mustard seed.

 

DHK,
Yes..there were many covenants...agreed. There were land promises for physical land , made to national Israel,conditioned upon obedience.

Where we do not agree is you continue to keep gentiles seperate from Israel, after God has made one new man in Christ.

The Israel of God still observes one day in seven.
Hebrews 4:8 .....if we as gentiles believed before the cross we would keep the 7th day.....

I will look at the other post now...lol I am working back up through the thread.

 

MR.Camping....:laugh::laugh: Cmon DHK...give me a little slack...lol

I agree that to "allegorize" any portion of scripture away to a point of denial should not take place......and I do not think that is taking place here.

in EZK 9 judgement is coming on Jerusalem...the elect remant is being marked by the fathers name.....those withouit that mark are going to be utterly destroyed.

In rev 13-14.....judgement again is coming upon apostate jerusalem......
people are marked, with the Fathers name or the beast's mark.....

No big allegory....pretty straight forward account.......

In your view...ezk 9 is an un-related unseen fact that we are told about randomly...as if there is nothing to learn from it....


DHK...
[QUOTEThe context of Ezekiel 49 is a judgement on Judah and it even gives that context as being historical at that time, not future as in Revelation 13. You can't fit the events of Revelation back in time to an era ca. 700 B.C. Impossible!
][/QUOTE]

Yes...what ezk9 spoke about was about the historical judgement at that time...agreed.....no one is trying to say it foretold rev13,14

Rev 13-14......is a further explanation and fulfillemnt on Mt 24 on apostate earthly Jerusalem...a fulfillment of the covenant curses foretold by MOSES in DEUT.28-33

Deut 28-33......= Mt 20-25 ..... the curses for covenant breaking,came upon Israel to the utter most...these be the days of vengenance.....

You have no answer for this......I mean the system you are supporting:thumbs:
Jerusalem rejected Jesus......they were covenant breakers, this was the greatest crime in human history.......they were promised to be cursed if they apostatized in this way.

Lets refresh our memory on this....

All these quotes came upon 1st century Israel.

That is good that you rejected such speculations.....and not every dispy goes over the top...true!

 

revmac.....here are just two pgs of chilton///132,133

And when we see the Lord warring against the devil,
we also see Him being given angelic assistance (cf.
Matt. 4:11; 26:53; Luke 22:43). As Michael leading the
angels, Christ led His apostles against the Dragon,
driving him out of his position. The message of the
Gospels is that in the earthly ministry of Christ and His
disciples, Satan lost his place of power and fell down to
the earth:
And the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even
the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to
them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and
scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing
shall injure you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the
spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are
recorded in heaven.” (Luke 10:17-20)
What Revelation 12 portrays is just that: not only the
subjection of the demons to the saints, but the
recording of the saints’ names in heaven – their
sentence of justification, of right standing in heaven’s
hall of justice, for their accuser has been thrown out of
court, his false testimony invalidated. The word for
conquer in this verse (nikao–) carries the connotation,
not only of a military victory, but of a legal victory as
well; the winning of a favorable verdict (cf. Rom. 3:4).
The definitive accomplishment of this, of course, was
Christ’s atonement for the sins of His people; thus, just
before He offered up Himself as the sacrifice, our Lord
said: “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler
of this world shall be thrown out” (John 12:31). In
Christ’s victory, salvation and the Kingdom came to
earth. Satan was defeated.
The very language of the Gospels bears this out. The
standard term for Christ’s “casting out” of the demons
throughout His ministry (ekballo–; cf. Matt. 8:16, 31;
9:33-34; 10:1, 8; 12:24, 26-28) is simply an intensive
form of the word used repeatedly in Revelation 12 for
the “throwing down” of the Dragon (ballo–). And Jesus
announced: “If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God,
then the Kingdom of God has come upon you” (Matt.
12:28). The message of Revelation is consistent with
that of the New Testament as a whole: Christ has
arrived, Satan has been thrown down, and the
Kingdom has come. By His death and resurrection,
Christ “disarmed” the demons, triumphing over them
(Col. 2:15). Satan has been rendered powerless (Heb.
2:14-15), and so St. Paul was able to assure the
believers in Rome that “the God of peace will soon
crush Satan under your feet” (Rom. 16:20). The Cross
was the mark, Jesus said, of the judgment of the world
(John 12:31) – or, as John Calvin rendered it, the
reformation and restoration of the world.37 The
illegitimate ruler of the world was cast out by the
coming of Christ. As He announced at His Ascension,
“All authority (exousia) in heaven and on earth has
been given to Me” (Matt. 28:18). St. John’s vision
declares the same thing: The Kingdom of our God and
the authority (exousia) of His Christ have come!
12 The Voice from heaven exhorts the congregation to
exultant worship: For this reason, rejoice, O heavens,
and you who tabernacle in them. Who are these who
tabernacle (not just dwell) in heaven? St. John has made
it plain by this time that the Church’s worship takes
place, really and truly, before the heavenly throne of
God (4:4-11; 5:8-14; 7:9-17). The New Testament
clearly reflects this understanding on the part of the
apostles and the early Church, declaring that God has
raised us up with Christ to the heavenly places (Eph.
2:6), where we have our citizenship (Phil. 3:20). Our
worship is beheld by the angelic multitude (1 Cor.
11:10; Eph. 3:10), for we have come to the heavenly
Jerusalem, where innumerable angels are gathered in
festal assembly with the Church (Heb. 12:22-23).
Those who are called to joyful praise for the coming of
the Kingdom and the defeat of the Dragon, therefore,
are the Church. We have followed the Child in His
victorious Ascension (Eph. 1:20-22; 2:6), and have
become His Tabernacle (cf. 7:15; 13:6).
But Christ’s definitive conquest of the Dragon does not
mean the end of his activity altogether. Indeed, like a
cornered rat he becomes even more frantically vicious,
his snarling rage increasing with his frustration and
impotence. The Voice from heaven thus declares: Woe
to the Land and the Sea, because the Dragon has
come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that
he has only a short time. The Seventh Trumpet has
sounded (11:15), and the Third Woe has arrived (see
8:13; 11:14). The domain of the Dragon, following his
defeat at the Ascension of Christ, has now become the
Land and the Sea; he has lost forever the Edenic
sanctuary, which had been surrendered to him by
Adam. Thus, in Chapter 13, St. John sees two great
Beasts in the Dragon’s image, arising from the Sea and
the Land. The Sea, in St. John’s imagery, will turn out
to be the heathen nations (see below, on 13:1-2),
raging and foaming in their hatred against the Lord and
His Christ (cf. Ps. 2:1). And, as we have seen
repeatedly, Israel is represented by the Land. The Voice
is warning that both Israel and the Empire will become
demonized in Satan’s mad frenzy to hold onto the
decayed, withering remnants of his illicit rule. The
Dragon has only a brief period left in which to bring
about the ruin of the Church, while she is still
connected to old Israel; he will seek to stir up Land and
Sea, first in a demonic partnership against the Church,
and then in a war against each other, in order to crush
the Church between them. Like a deposed gangster on
the run, the Dragon tries to consolidate his power for a
last, desperate stand. But he knows he is doomed; time
has almost run out.

 

here is part 2.....it did not fit
The Dragon Attacks the Church (12:13-17)
13 And when the Dragon saw that he was thrown down to
the Land, he persecuted the Woman who gave birth to
the male Child.
14 And two wings of the great Eagle were given to the

12:12
Woman, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to
her place, so that she might be nourished for a time and
times and half a time, from the face of the Serpent.
15 And the Serpent threw water like a river out of his mouth
after the Woman, so that he might cause her to be swept
away with the flood.
16 And the Land helped the Woman, and the Land opened
its mouth and drank up the river which the Dragon threw
out of his mouth.
17 And the Dragon was enraged with the Woman, and went
off to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the
commandments of God and hold to the testimony of
Jesus.
13 St. John returns to the theme mentioned in verse 6:
the Woman’s flight from the Dragon. This happens as a
direct result of the Dragon’s defeat at the hands of
Michael, for when the Dragon saw that he was
thrown down to the Land, he persecuted the Woman
who had given birth to the male Child. It cannot be
emphasized too greatly that for St. John and his
audience this is one of the most crucial points of the
entire chapter. The Dragon persecutes the Church
precisely because Christ defeated him. We must remember
this as we read of the Dragon’s hatching of conspiracies,
his crafty backstage machinations to bring about the
Church’s destruction; all of his attacks on the Church
are rooted in the fact that he has already been
conquered!
It is important for our interpretation to note also that
the persecution of the Woman arises in connection
with the Dragon’s fall to the Land of Israel. It is there,
first of all, that he seeks to destroy the Church.
14 But the Woman is delivered, flying into the
wilderness on two wings of the great Eagle. St. John
again uses imagery from the Exodus, in which the
angel-filled pillars of the Glory-Cloud were described as
“eagles’ wings,” by which God had brought Israel to
Himself in the wilderness, to be a people for His own
possession, a Kingdom of priests to God, a holy nation
(Ex. 19:4-6; cf. l Pet. 2:9-10). The picture is developed
further when Moses, surveying the history of the
Covenant people at the end of his life, speaks of how
God saved Israel in the wilderness:
He found him in a desert land,
And in the howling waste of a wilderness;
He encircled him, He cared for him,
He guarded him as the pupil of His eye.
Like an eagle that stirs up its nest,
That hovers over its young,
He spread His wings and caught them,
He carried them on His pinions. (Deut. 32:10-11)
Moses uses two key words in this passage: waste and
hover. Both of these words occur only one other time in
the entire Pentateuch, and again they occur together,
in Genesis 1:2. Waste is used to describe the
uninhabitable condition of the earth at its creation
(“without form”); and hover is Moses’ term for the
Spirit’s activity of “moving” in creative power over the
face of the deep. God is not careless with language. His
prophet Moses had a specific reason for repeating those
key words in his farewell address. He was underscoring
the message that the salvation of Israel was a creation
event. The Covenant on Sinai was a re-creation, a
reorganization of the world.38 Similarly, St. John
borrows terminology from the same passage in Moses to
present that message to the Church: God has brought
to fulfillment the provisional re-creations of the old
order. The coming of Christ has brought about the
definitive re-creation, the New Covenant. And, as in
the days of old when God miraculously preserved Israel
in all her afflictions, providing her a Paradise in the
midst of a wilderness, so He will now nourish and
cherish the Church, His Bride and the Mother of His
only begotten Son. His Covenant people dwell in the
shade of the Glory-Cloud, in the shadow of His wings
(Ps. 17:8; 36:7; 57:1; 61:4; 91:4, 11). The wings of the
Eagle, which signify death and destruction to the
enemies of the covenant (Deut. 28:49; Job 39:27-30;
Jer. 48:40; Hos. 8:1; Hab. 1:8; Matt. 24:28), are an
emblem of peace, security, and blessing to the heirs of
Covenant grace.
Again (cf. v. 6), St. John makes the point that the
Woman’s flight into the wilderness is not evidence of
her abandonment by God; it is not a sign that she has
lost the battle, or that events are out of control. Rather,
she flies on eagle’s wings above the waters (v. 15) to her
place, so that she might be nourished during the period
of tribulation (cf. Luke 4:25-26), the standard three
and a half years of judgment mentioned in the prophets
– or, as St. John gives it here in the language of Daniel
7:25 and 12:7, a time and times and half a time.
Preterist commentators have traditionally seen this
passage in terms of the escape of the Judean Church
from the Edomite and Roman invasions during the
Jewish War, when, in obedience to Christ’s commands
(Matt. 24:15-28), the Christians escaped to shelter in
the caves of the desert.39 There is nothing wrong with
this view, as far as it goes, but it does not go far enough.
For St. John’s allegory of the Woman is the story of the
Church, not only a particular branch of it. The
deliverance of the Judean Church must be seen as the
primary historical referent of this text, but with the
realization that her experience is representative and
illustrative of the deliverance of the Church as a whole
in this difficult period, when the Lord prepared a table
for her in the face of her enemies (Ps. 23:5).
15-16 St. John continues his Exodus imagery,
reminding us of when the children of Israel had been
trapped “between the devil and the deep Red Sea”:
And the Serpent threw water like a river out of his
mouth after the Woman, so that he might cause her
to be swept away with the flood. Farrer says: “The
woman is treated as the congregation of Israel, saved
from Egypt, lifted by the Lord on eagle’s pinions and
brought to Sinai. The dragon’s pursuit of her by
throwing a waterflood after her is a generalized image
12:13-16
for the

 

You are the one setting dates, as is evidenced in your statement below.

As you say Mr. Camping. But you have a problem with Scripture and its author.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 1:9)

John was on the "isle that is called Patmos" when he wrote this book.
This happened during the rule of Domitian. You can check the history books but there is no other conclusion one can come to. All reputable commentaries, Bible dictionaries, Bible encyclopedias, etc. tell us that John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos during the reign of Domitian whose rule was between 95-98 A.D. Your entire theology is built on a false premise, the premise that this book was written in an earlier time, but there is no evidence for it. This books refutes it thoroughly. If anything refutes Preterism, the simple date of the Book of Revelation does, where in the last chapter Jesus promises three times that He is coming again, and John prays "Even so come Lord Jesus."

 

Iconoclast, you provide lots of opportunities of dispute when the Bible and it's clear teaching is given the light of day. But looking beyond that and trying to re-focus, I ask the question how is it that we can be this far into this thread and still there is no answer from the preterist crowd to the OP question: "How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy?"