How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy

[thomas15]

Look at the question again:
Has Israel come to the place where they will never hunger, never thirst, where the heat or sun will never smite them or make them uncomfortable, etc. Has that ever happened in history?

Iconoclast, even if one buys into the replace theologians concept that the church is the true Israel (which I don't), you still have not answered DHK's question. If the church is Israel, when did those of the elect under the preterist scheme stop hungering, thirsting, when did the sun and heat stop making us uncomfortable, and so forth?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, even if one buys into the replace theologians concept that the church is the true Israel (which I don't), you still have not answered DHK's question. If the church is Israel, when did those of the elect under the preterist scheme stop hungering, thirsting, when did the sun and heat stop making us uncomfortable, and so forth?

Thomas,
The church never replaces Israel.....we are grafted in..Romans 11

Not all Israel was of Israel. Unbelieving Jews are out. The believing remnant and believing gentiles form the new Holy nation ex19 1 pet 2...the new exodus... new Israel...new promised land.

The blessings are primarily in the spiritual realm until the last day.
LIKE THIS THOMAS;

13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
and this;
he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[mandym]

During these 1000 years, Israel will be the chief nation of the world and will be restored to the full dimensions of her land which God promised. Mt. Zion will be raised up as the chief mountain in the world and it is from here that Christ will reign from the New Jerusalem (Ps. 68:16; 132:13-14; Micah 4:1-8). King David will be resurrected and will be the chief prince over the nation of Israel (Jer. 30:9; Ezek. 37:24-25). All other nations will honor Israel and will worship God in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14 tells us that those nations who do not come up to Jerusalem every year to worship God will be punished with no rain.

http://www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0015.html

Premillennialism

This view is the view of the early church fathers which takes a literal approach to the Scriptures. It teaches that after the seventieth week of Daniel is completed, Christ will establish His kingdom here on earth and reign for 1000 years. The primary subjects of this kingdom will be the surviving remnant of Israel that will eventually turn to Christ as their true Messiah and King just after the completion of the seventieth week. There will also be a remnant from among the surviving Gentile nations, especially from Egypt and Assyria, none of which will have taken the mark or worshiped the beast or his image. Premillennialists have various views on the timing of the Rapture, but they all place that momentous event before the 1000-year reign of Christ and His kingdom.

http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0020.html

None of this supports your earlier false claim.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,
You get very emotional in your posts,and yet you are non responsive at the same time.

Look at the question again:
Has Israel come to the place where they will never hunger, never thirst, where the heat or sun will never smite them or make them uncomfortable, etc. Has that ever happened in history?

Now explain to me in history (give dates, times, places, etc.), where Israel has never hungered or thirsted.


1]Look at my response to Thomas. I have offered you verses where Jesus explains how we are to understand verses about hungering,and thirsting...
you evidently are looking for a physical fulfillment of these things, and yet Jesus spoke of a spiritual truth being fulfilled for christians ,literally in the Spiritual realm now......you do not accept this, you like the first century jew are looking for a physical earthly Kingdom...Jesus taught differently then and now. You did not really respond to my verses.

2] You have the old understanding of what Israel was...Israel is spoken of as five things in scripture.

They crucified Christ and forty years later their city and their temple was destroyed,


yes ..Matthew 24 was literally fulfilled 100% as Jesus said.



and they were scattered over the face of the earth. In WWII they faced the horrible holocaust of Hitler, the very opposite of the teaching given in that verse. The goal of the Arab nations even now, is wipe them off of the map, shove them into the sea and get rid of them completely. All of this completely contradicts this verse and the promises that are made in the chapter you are quoting. I am not wrong.

One of us is wrong..yes... I know who it is! you think you know also thats why we have a debate room...but like I said ...you cannot get it right until you get Israel right.

You are wrong; very wrong.

My view of Scripture is not wrong. I have just pointed out how you have a very biased and distorted view of Scripture that it doesn't even make sense.

DHK...I understand how you can say this..I used to say it also.
It does make sense when you look at it...
I will even go so far as to say...it might not be fully correct but you cannot say it does not make sense.

Your main error is right here:

2. That there would be a future blessing on Israel (both Israel and Judah combined), which has not happened yet. It would happen when there is a temple, when they are one nation, and the blessings would be great. That has not happened yet. I would rather believe the Bible then your imaginations. Speculations and philosophy are not for me. I stick to the Word of God.

Quote:

really....lets see who sticks with the word of God..and who speculates??

DHK ..i explained the mark of the beast using Ezk 9...also the fathers name in the forehead.... you reject ezk 9 with double talk....

DHK... try and stay in the bible, and use the bible to explain what is the mark of the beast.....lets see what you've got.......not a laser beam ,or a credit card.... you say....speculations are not for me....
so when Hal lindsey describes apache helicopters out of rev 9...you rejected that?

without wild outside the bible speculation...you have no dispy view...thats why i now reject it...
it s false rebuilt temple, false animal sacrifices, gentiles fawning over apostate jews, one world conspiracy theories,

 

[lastday]

Failure of Preterism

Friends,

Preterism fails to deal with the reality that God will not display His vengeance and wrath upon the wicked until the last "martyr has been killed who must be killed".
Only at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet will God resurrect and reward "the Prophets and Saints, both small and great and destroy the destroyers of
the earth"!
Rev.6:9-11; Rev.11:15-18.
Mel at www.lastday.net

 

[Iconoclast]

Friends,

Preterism fails to deal with the reality that God will not display His vengeance and wrath upon the wicked until the last "martyr has been killed who must be killed".
Only at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet will God resurrect and reward "the Prophets and Saints, both small and great and destroy the destroyers of
the earth"!
Rev.6:9-11; Rev.11:15-18.
Mel at www.lastday.net

Some would say that that wrath was poured out on the 70ad judgement.
In one of the letters to the churches one of the martyrs was named.

13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Do you see how this seems to be addressed to those living at that time.? Do you know anyone named Antipas today??

The days of vengenace....
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



Notice vs 22...all things written....where were the days of vengenance spoken of...Deut 32
35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

38Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

41If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

42I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

 

[revmwc]

Some would say that that wrath was poured out on the 70ad judgement.
In one of the letters to the churches one of the martyrs was named.


Do you see how this seems to be addressed to those living at that time.?

So the letters to the chuches describing what was taking place in 90 to 95 A.D. by the accounts of almost every bible commentary refers back to 70 A.D. Jerusalem even though the church at Pergamos was being written too. Jesus was addressing the issues of the chucrches of that day in His Revelation to those churches while showing the future apostacy that would come to the church in the future.
Again if you go through noted theologians time and again you find that Revelation is said to be penned in the 90's A.D. over 20 years after the fall of Jerusalem and Christ is still addressing the churches. His Kingdom not yet set up. Promises made to the believers through those messages to His churches.

Continuing in Revelation 2: 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Notice verse 25 Jesus said He had yet to come, and verse 26 those that overcome and keep Christ works to the end will have a position in the kingdom and rule with Christ.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Those who overcome will wear white raiment.

Revelation 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Yet another promise for those who hold the truth and overcome by Faith in Christ. Verse 10 even promises that the believer will not go through the hour of temptation which is the tribulation.
Since revelation was written in the 90's A.D. then all these are yet future prophecies yet to be fulfilled, while the destruction of Jerusalem occured in 70 A.D. and was past.

 

[DHK]

DHK,
You get very emotional in your posts,and yet you are non responsive at the same time.

I am not emotional. I have given you a question based on a portion of Scripture which you cannot answer unless you allegorize the entire passage which is unacceptable. It is unacceptable to deny Scripture through spritualizing its truths.

DHK...I understand how you can say this..I used to say it also.
It does make sense when you look at it...
I will even go so far as to say...it might not be fully correct but you cannot say it does not make sense.

The J.W.'s can "make sense" out of spiritualizing the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I can't, and I can't make sense out of your spiritualizing of Scripture either.

really....lets see who sticks with the word of God..and who speculates??

DHK ..i explained the mark of the beast using Ezk 9...also the fathers name in the forehead.... you reject ezk 9 with double talk....

No double talk. Read chapter 48 first. Get the context. It is not double-talk to say that Ezekiel is one of the most apocalyptic books in the Bible and uses many signs and symbols to get across its message. It is not double-talk that the word "mark" does not mean the same thing in every passage that it is used. There is no reason to take the word "mark" in Ezekiel 49 and make it mean the same as the mark of the beast in Revelation 13. That is a wild stretch of the imagination. The two are not even connected.

The context of Ezekiel 49 is a judgement on Judah and it even gives that context as being historical at that time, not future as in Revelation 13. You can't fit the events of Revelation back in time to an era ca. 700 B.C. Impossible!

DHK... try and stay in the bible, and use the bible to explain what is the mark of the beast.....lets see what you've got.......not a laser beam ,or a credit card.... you say....speculations are not for me....
so when Hal lindsey describes apache helicopters out of rev 9...you rejected that?

Yes, I reject such speculations. I never gave into that. I don't read into the Bible that which is not there.

without wild outside the bible speculation...you have no dispy view...thats why i now reject it...

Garbage! Just because you have heard some bad teaching from a dispensational point of view doesn't mean all dispenasational point of view.
Harold Camping is a Calvinist. Therefore all Calvinists hold to views just like Harold Camping. Am I to come to that conclusion? That is what you are doing!!

it s false rebuilt temple, false animal sacrifices, gentiles fawning over apostate jews, one world conspiracy theories,

Whatever you say Mr. Camping!

 

[thomas15]

Iconoclast, you are indeed a replacement theologian. By claiming for yourself that which was promised to another is ....replacement. Why would you want to deny that of which is plain as day to those reading your posts?

It is obvious that you have not looked at the New Covenant as outlined in places like Jer ch 31. This is not a spiritual existance. Jesus did not say the new covenant is a "spiritual nation" in the upper room discourse, rather he ratified the terms of what was previously promised. And Paul, speaking to the Romans noted that the gentiles could be grafted out just as easy as they were grafted in. You disagree? And just how is a "spiritual graft" performed in a Biblical sense anyway?

A question preterism cannot answer is grafted into what? Another question preterism cannot answer is what makes them so sure that Jehovah will not change his mind about the church and graft a third party in, and cast off the gentile church? Is the gentile church any better than the Israelities when it comes to doing the will of God? I'm not at all convinced we are any better, in-fact, given the resources we have I think we are making a real hash out of things.

But the real big question preterism cannot answer is who is and when did the man of sin enter the temple and proclaim himself to be god? (2 thes ch 2)

Thomas,
The church never replaces Israel.....we are grafted in..Romans 11

Not all Israel was of Israel. Unbelieving Jews are out. The believing remnant and believing gentiles form the new Holy nation ex19 1 pet 2...the new exodus... new Israel...new promised land.

The blessings are primarily in the spiritual realm until the last day.
LIKE THIS THOMAS;

13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
and this;
he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, you are indeed a replacement theologian. By claiming for yourself that which was promised to another is ....replacement. Why would you want to deny that of which is plain as day to those reading your posts?

It is obvious that you have not looked at the New Covenant as outlined in places like Jer ch 31. This is not a spiritual existance. Jesus did not say the new covenant is a "spiritual nation" in the upper room discourse, rather he ratified the terms of what was previously promised. And Paul, speaking to the Romans noted that the gentiles could be grafted out just as easy as they were grafted in. You disagree? And just how is a "spiritual graft" performed in a Biblical sense anyway?

A question preterism cannot answer is grafted into what? Another question preterism cannot answer is what makes them so sure that Jehovah will not change his mind about the church and graft a third party in, and cast off the gentile church? Is the gentile church any better than the Israelities when it comes to doing the will of God? I'm not at all convinced we are any better, in-fact, given the resources we have I think we are making a real hash out of things.

But the real big question preterism cannot answer is who is and when did the man of sin enter the temple and proclaim himself to be god? (2 thes ch 2)

Thomas,

you say....

=thomas15;1727340]Iconoclast, you are indeed a replacement theologian. By claiming for yourself that which was promised to another is ....replacement. Why would you want to deny that of which is plain as day to those reading your posts?

Thomas....I believe you error right here at the start when you say.....

By claiming for yourself that which was promised to another is ....replacement..

Thomas the promise is to all the seed of Abraham....Why do you then say it was promised to another?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

[QUOTE14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ][/QUOTE]

The promise is to all who believe JEW or Gentile....

So the promise was made to me also...and everyone who believes.
Then you say

It is obvious that you have not looked at the New Covenant as outlined in places like Jer ch 31.

Thomas my friend, I have looked at Jer31...and Hebrews 8 and 10.
I think we have a different understanding because we are not looking at it the same way.


This is not a spiritual existance. Jesus did not say the new covenant is a "spiritual nation" in the upper room discourse,

Thomas he taught Peter about it;

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Now clearly in 1Pet2....Peter is speaking to gentiles who are now part of the holy nation.....THomas what nation is that?
Could it be part of......The New Israel, The True Israel, all those who are in Union with Christ...jew or gentile.....That is exactly what the scriptures teach!

rather he ratified the terms of what was previously promised. And Paul, speaking to the Romans noted that the gentiles could be grafted out just as easy as they were grafted in. You disagree?

Thomas.....what was ratified was misunderstood by most jews in Jesus day...
gentiles came in on equal footing as jews...because of the cross.
When Jesus and the apostles taught this very thing the unbelieving jews attacked them.
Jesus is the promised "seed" of Abraham.....and all believers in Him.
Jesus is the covenant Son...that Israel was designed to be...but failed for the most part....Ex.4:22

22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Jesus is the new exodus...and His body the church is the holy nation now!
That is what I understand scripture to teach. We are part of the Israel of God.

And just how is a "spiritual graft" performed in a Biblical sense anyway?

Simple.....by new birth we are placed into the Covenant of Grace...as it was promised from Gen 3:15, to Abraham, Issac, Jacob...to David...

I know that dispensational teaching likes to say they like literal teaching...but we are not literal branches of a literal olive tree. Believers are grafted into the spiritual promises of the covenant.

Jesus died a covenant death for His elect...those who are children of the promise.

 

[DHK]

Simple.....by new birth we are placed into the Covenant of Grace...as it was promised from Gen 3:15, to Abraham, Issac, Jacob...to David...

I know that dispensational teaching likes to say they like literal teaching...but we are not literal branches of a literal olive tree. Believers are grafted into the spiritual promises of the covenant.

Jesus died a covenant death for His elect...those who are children of the promise.

There are many more than just one covenant. Many of the covenants to the Jews still remain to this day. We were grafted in. That means we partake of the blessings of the tree. The covenant was still made to Israel.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. (Exodus 31:12-17)

Read through this passage carefully. The Sabbath is a sign of a perpetual covenant given between Jehovah and the nation of Israel and their generations forever. It was never given to Gentile believers, never.
We don't keep the Sabbath (Saturday) therefore. It is given to Israel.
If the the covenant is ours to keep, why don't you worship on Saturday instead of Sunday. You are not consistent in your theology.

 

[Iconoclast]

So the letters to the chuches describing what was taking place in 90 to 95 A.D. by the accounts of almost every bible commentary refers back to 70 A.D. Jerusalem even though the church at Pergamos was being written too. Jesus was addressing the issues of the chucrches of that day in His Revelation to those churches while showing the future apostacy that would come to the church in the future.
Again if you go through noted theologians time and again you find that Revelation is said to be penned in the 90's A.D. over 20 years after the fall of Jerusalem and Christ is still addressing the churches. His Kingdom not yet set up. Promises made to the believers through those messages to His churches.

Continuing in Revelation 2: 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Notice verse 25 Jesus said He had yet to come, and verse 26 those that overcome and keep Christ works to the end will have a position in the kingdom and rule with Christ.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Those who overcome will wear white raiment.

Revelation 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Yet another promise for those who hold the truth and overcome by Faith in Christ. Verse 10 even promises that the believer will not go through the hour of temptation which is the tribulation.
Since revelation was written in the 90's A.D. then all these are yet future prophecies yet to be fulfilled, while the destruction of Jerusalem occured in 70 A.D. and was past.

REVMAC,

I was taught the "late date" of revelation...95-96 ad....
Others have offered support for an early date...before 68 ad...I am not certain of the date.....but an early date would be a strong support for the partial preterist.

Again if you go through noted theologians time and again you find that Revelation is said to be penned in the 90's A.D. over 20 years after the fall of Jerusalem and Christ is still addressing the churches.

Why if it is 96 ad is John told to measure the temple??? If it had been destroyed already???/

4.Revelation 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Revelation 11:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 11 (Whole Chapter)
5.Revelation 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 11 (Whole Chapter)

This fits the partial preterist explanation...put forth in Chiltons days of Vengeance...
here it is...

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.pdf
I have not seen this work refuted yet....I am still studying it out...but someone needs to deal with this kind of teaching.....
The date of the book or Revelation is important...I will say that.:thumbs:

Verse 10 even promises that the believer will not go through the hour of temptation which is the tribulation

Nothing in these letters says this is a 7yr tribulation......This tribulation was the tribulation of MT 24 spoken about 70 ad....pray that your flight be not on the sabbath....not something still in the future for us.

His Kingdom not yet set up. Promises made to the believers through those messages to His churches.

The kingdom has begun and is spreading like the growth of the mustard seed.

 

[Iconoclast]

There are many more than just one covenant. Many of the covenants to the Jews still remain to this day. We were grafted in. That means we partake of the blessings of the tree. The covenant was still made to Israel.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. (Exodus 31:12-17)

Read through this passage carefully. The Sabbath is a sign of a perpetual covenant given between Jehovah and the nation of Israel and their generations forever. It was never given to Gentile believers, never.
We don't keep the Sabbath (Saturday) therefore. It is given to Israel.
If the the covenant is ours to keep, why don't you worship on Saturday instead of Sunday. You are not consistent in your theology.

DHK,
Yes..there were many covenants...agreed. There were land promises for physical land , made to national Israel,conditioned upon obedience.

Where we do not agree is you continue to keep gentiles seperate from Israel, after God has made one new man in Christ.

The Israel of God still observes one day in seven.
Hebrews 4:8 .....if we as gentiles believed before the cross we would keep the 7th day.....

I will look at the other post now...lol I am working back up through the thread.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not emotional. I have given you a question based on a portion of Scripture which you cannot answer unless you allegorize the entire passage which is unacceptable. It is unacceptable to deny Scripture through spritualizing its truths.

The J.W.'s can "make sense" out of spiritualizing the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I can't, and I can't make sense out of your spiritualizing of Scripture either.

No double talk. Read chapter 48 first. Get the context. It is not double-talk to say that Ezekiel is one of the most apocalyptic books in the Bible and uses many signs and symbols to get across its message. It is not double-talk that the word "mark" does not mean the same thing in every passage that it is used. There is no reason to take the word "mark" in Ezekiel 49 and make it mean the same as the mark of the beast in Revelation 13. That is a wild stretch of the imagination. The two are not even connected.

The context of Ezekiel 49 is a judgement on Judah and it even gives that context as being historical at that time, not future as in Revelation 13. You can't fit the events of Revelation back in time to an era ca. 700 B.C. Impossible!

Yes, I reject such speculations. I never gave into that. I don't read into the Bible that which is not there.

Garbage! Just because you have heard some bad teaching from a dispensational point of view doesn't mean all dispenasational point of view.
Harold Camping is a Calvinist. Therefore all Calvinists hold to views just like Harold Camping. Am I to come to that conclusion? That is what you are doing!!

Whatever you say Mr. Camping!

MR.Camping....:laugh::laugh: Cmon DHK...give me a little slack...lol

I am not emotional. I have given you a question based on a portion of Scripture which you cannot answer unless you allegorize the entire passage which is unacceptable. It is unacceptable to deny Scripture through spritualizing its truths.

I agree that to "allegorize" any portion of scripture away to a point of denial should not take place......and I do not think that is taking place here.

in EZK 9 judgement is coming on Jerusalem...the elect remant is being marked by the fathers name.....those withouit that mark are going to be utterly destroyed.

In rev 13-14.....judgement again is coming upon apostate jerusalem......
people are marked, with the Fathers name or the beast's mark.....

No big allegory....pretty straight forward account.......

In your view...ezk 9 is an un-related unseen fact that we are told about randomly...as if there is nothing to learn from it....


DHK...
[QUOTEThe context of Ezekiel 49 is a judgement on Judah and it even gives that context as being historical at that time, not future as in Revelation 13. You can't fit the events of Revelation back in time to an era ca. 700 B.C. Impossible!
][/QUOTE]

Yes...what ezk9 spoke about was about the historical judgement at that time...agreed.....no one is trying to say it foretold rev13,14

Rev 13-14......is a further explanation and fulfillemnt on Mt 24 on apostate earthly Jerusalem...a fulfillment of the covenant curses foretold by MOSES in DEUT.28-33

Deut 28-33......= Mt 20-25 ..... the curses for covenant breaking,came upon Israel to the utter most...these be the days of vengenance.....

You have no answer for this......I mean the system you are supporting:thumbs:
Jerusalem rejected Jesus......they were covenant breakers, this was the greatest crime in human history.......they were promised to be cursed if they apostatized in this way.

Lets refresh our memory on this....

12That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:

13That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

14Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;

15But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

19And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:

20The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

21And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:

22So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;

23And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

24Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
25Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:

26For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:

27And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:

28And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

45Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:

46And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

47Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;

48Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

49The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

63And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

64And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

65And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

66And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

67In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. 68And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

26Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

27For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?

28Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

30And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.

All these quotes came upon 1st century Israel.

Yes, I reject such speculations. I never gave into that. I don't read into the Bible that which is not there.

Garbage! Just because you have heard some bad teaching from a dispensational point of view doesn't mean all dispenasational point of view.

That is good that you rejected such speculations.....and not every dispy goes over the top...true!

 

[revmwc]

REVMAC,

I was taught the "late date" of revelation...95-96 ad....
Others have offered support for an early date...before 68 ad...I am not certain of the date.....but an early date would be a strong support for the partial preterist.

Why if it is 96 ad is John told to measure the temple??? If it had been destroyed already???/
This will be the temple in the Tribulation. Notice the 42 months it will be tread upon by the gentiles that will be 3 1/2 years as the obination that maketh desolate is standing in the temple.
This fits the partial preterist explanation...put forth in Chiltons days of Vengeance...
here it is...



http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.pdf
I have not seen this work refuted yet....I am still studying it out...but someone needs to deal with this kind of teaching.....
The date of the book or Revelation is important...I will say that.:thumbs:

Luke 21:20-22 is clearly speaking of Israel fleeing the wrath of the armies surrounding her. Revelation 12 shows this very clearly, the woman that brought forth the man child is the nation Israel, the man child is Jesus the Messiah. Satan the Dragon is seeking to destroy Israel during that time of Vengance. But God save Israel from the dragon. Even sending Michael the Arch Angel to fight for her. Ezekial 38 and 39 would fit this as Gog, Magog and there alliance comes against Israel. God stops the advancing armies and they die amoung the Mountains of Israel. God says in Ezekial 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
That God's name is known of His People Israel and they will no longer pollute His namre and all the heathen will know He is God, the Holy one of Israel.
It all fits perfectly as God revealed it to Ezekial and John in apocalyptic revelation. The culmination of the battle in Ezekial 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
says that Israel will be burying the dead for seven months. This has yet to occur, God's Vengence will be upon mankind during the tribulation.
Then God says of Israel in Ezekial 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

That He will bring Israel back as His people and He will not Hide His face anymore from them and the Spirit of God will be upon the House of Israel yet again. Very clearly the Luke passage you show from Chilton is showing it's fulfillment in Revelation 12 and Ezekial 38 and 39. This was not seen in 70 A.D.


Nothing in these letters says this is a 7yr tribulation......This tribulation was the tribulation of MT 24 spoken about 70 ad....pray that your flight be not on the sabbath....not something still in the future for us.

The Greek for tempatation is also Tribulation and God, as the term hour referes to a period of time, so the greek term is saying I will keep you from the time of tribulation.

The kingdom has begun and is spreading like the growth of the mustard seed.

My answers in REDabove.

Of which Kingdom are you refering? His Messianic Kingdom is yet to come. The Kingdom in which He is reigning in Israel on David's throne has yet to begin. The Kingdom of Heaven is growing today and God the Father is ruling over it from His heavenly throne with His son at His side. The son awaiting His enemies to be made His footstool.

 

[Iconoclast]

revmac.....here are just two pgs of chilton///132,133

And when we see the Lord warring against the devil,
we also see Him being given angelic assistance (cf.
Matt. 4:11; 26:53; Luke 22:43). As Michael leading the
angels, Christ led His apostles against the Dragon,
driving him out of his position. The message of the
Gospels is that in the earthly ministry of Christ and His
disciples, Satan lost his place of power and fell down to
the earth:
And the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even
the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to
them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and
scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing
shall injure you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the
spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are
recorded in heaven.” (Luke 10:17-20)
What Revelation 12 portrays is just that: not only the
subjection of the demons to the saints, but the
recording of the saints’ names in heaven – their
sentence of justification, of right standing in heaven’s
hall of justice, for their accuser has been thrown out of
court, his false testimony invalidated. The word for
conquer in this verse (nikao–) carries the connotation,
not only of a military victory, but of a legal victory as
well; the winning of a favorable verdict (cf. Rom. 3:4).
The definitive accomplishment of this, of course, was
Christ’s atonement for the sins of His people; thus, just
before He offered up Himself as the sacrifice, our Lord
said: “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler
of this world shall be thrown out” (John 12:31). In
Christ’s victory, salvation and the Kingdom came to
earth. Satan was defeated.
The very language of the Gospels bears this out. The
standard term for Christ’s “casting out” of the demons
throughout His ministry (ekballo–; cf. Matt. 8:16, 31;
9:33-34; 10:1, 8; 12:24, 26-28) is simply an intensive
form of the word used repeatedly in Revelation 12 for
the “throwing down” of the Dragon (ballo–). And Jesus
announced: “If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God,
then the Kingdom of God has come upon you” (Matt.
12:28). The message of Revelation is consistent with
that of the New Testament as a whole: Christ has
arrived, Satan has been thrown down, and the
Kingdom has come. By His death and resurrection,
Christ “disarmed” the demons, triumphing over them
(Col. 2:15). Satan has been rendered powerless (Heb.
2:14-15), and so St. Paul was able to assure the
believers in Rome that “the God of peace will soon
crush Satan under your feet” (Rom. 16:20). The Cross
was the mark, Jesus said, of the judgment of the world
(John 12:31) – or, as John Calvin rendered it, the
reformation and restoration of the world.37 The
illegitimate ruler of the world was cast out by the
coming of Christ. As He announced at His Ascension,
“All authority (exousia) in heaven and on earth has
been given to Me” (Matt. 28:18). St. John’s vision
declares the same thing: The Kingdom of our God and
the authority (exousia) of His Christ have come!
12 The Voice from heaven exhorts the congregation to
exultant worship: For this reason, rejoice, O heavens,
and you who tabernacle in them. Who are these who
tabernacle (not just dwell) in heaven? St. John has made
it plain by this time that the Church’s worship takes
place, really and truly, before the heavenly throne of
God (4:4-11; 5:8-14; 7:9-17). The New Testament
clearly reflects this understanding on the part of the
apostles and the early Church, declaring that God has
raised us up with Christ to the heavenly places (Eph.
2:6), where we have our citizenship (Phil. 3:20). Our
worship is beheld by the angelic multitude (1 Cor.
11:10; Eph. 3:10), for we have come to the heavenly
Jerusalem, where innumerable angels are gathered in
festal assembly with the Church (Heb. 12:22-23).
Those who are called to joyful praise for the coming of
the Kingdom and the defeat of the Dragon, therefore,
are the Church. We have followed the Child in His
victorious Ascension (Eph. 1:20-22; 2:6), and have
become His Tabernacle (cf. 7:15; 13:6).
But Christ’s definitive conquest of the Dragon does not
mean the end of his activity altogether. Indeed, like a
cornered rat he becomes even more frantically vicious,
his snarling rage increasing with his frustration and
impotence. The Voice from heaven thus declares: Woe
to the Land and the Sea, because the Dragon has
come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that
he has only a short time. The Seventh Trumpet has
sounded (11:15), and the Third Woe has arrived (see
8:13; 11:14). The domain of the Dragon, following his
defeat at the Ascension of Christ, has now become the
Land and the Sea; he has lost forever the Edenic
sanctuary, which had been surrendered to him by
Adam. Thus, in Chapter 13, St. John sees two great
Beasts in the Dragon’s image, arising from the Sea and
the Land. The Sea, in St. John’s imagery, will turn out
to be the heathen nations (see below, on 13:1-2),
raging and foaming in their hatred against the Lord and
His Christ (cf. Ps. 2:1). And, as we have seen
repeatedly, Israel is represented by the Land. The Voice
is warning that both Israel and the Empire will become
demonized in Satan’s mad frenzy to hold onto the
decayed, withering remnants of his illicit rule. The
Dragon has only a brief period left in which to bring
about the ruin of the Church, while she is still
connected to old Israel; he will seek to stir up Land and
Sea, first in a demonic partnership against the Church,
and then in a war against each other, in order to crush
the Church between them. Like a deposed gangster on
the run, the Dragon tries to consolidate his power for a
last, desperate stand. But he knows he is doomed; time
has almost run out.

 

[Iconoclast]

here is part 2.....it did not fit
The Dragon Attacks the Church (12:13-17)
13 And when the Dragon saw that he was thrown down to
the Land, he persecuted the Woman who gave birth to
the male Child.
14 And two wings of the great Eagle were given to the

12:12
Woman, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to
her place, so that she might be nourished for a time and
times and half a time, from the face of the Serpent.
15 And the Serpent threw water like a river out of his mouth
after the Woman, so that he might cause her to be swept
away with the flood.
16 And the Land helped the Woman, and the Land opened
its mouth and drank up the river which the Dragon threw
out of his mouth.
17 And the Dragon was enraged with the Woman, and went
off to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the
commandments of God and hold to the testimony of
Jesus.
13 St. John returns to the theme mentioned in verse 6:
the Woman’s flight from the Dragon. This happens as a
direct result of the Dragon’s defeat at the hands of
Michael, for when the Dragon saw that he was
thrown down to the Land, he persecuted the Woman
who had given birth to the male Child. It cannot be
emphasized too greatly that for St. John and his
audience this is one of the most crucial points of the
entire chapter. The Dragon persecutes the Church
precisely because Christ defeated him. We must remember
this as we read of the Dragon’s hatching of conspiracies,
his crafty backstage machinations to bring about the
Church’s destruction; all of his attacks on the Church
are rooted in the fact that he has already been
conquered!
It is important for our interpretation to note also that
the persecution of the Woman arises in connection
with the Dragon’s fall to the Land of Israel. It is there,
first of all, that he seeks to destroy the Church.
14 But the Woman is delivered, flying into the
wilderness on two wings of the great Eagle. St. John
again uses imagery from the Exodus, in which the
angel-filled pillars of the Glory-Cloud were described as
“eagles’ wings,” by which God had brought Israel to
Himself in the wilderness, to be a people for His own
possession, a Kingdom of priests to God, a holy nation
(Ex. 19:4-6; cf. l Pet. 2:9-10). The picture is developed
further when Moses, surveying the history of the
Covenant people at the end of his life, speaks of how
God saved Israel in the wilderness:
He found him in a desert land,
And in the howling waste of a wilderness;
He encircled him, He cared for him,
He guarded him as the pupil of His eye.
Like an eagle that stirs up its nest,
That hovers over its young,
He spread His wings and caught them,
He carried them on His pinions. (Deut. 32:10-11)
Moses uses two key words in this passage: waste and
hover. Both of these words occur only one other time in
the entire Pentateuch, and again they occur together,
in Genesis 1:2. Waste is used to describe the
uninhabitable condition of the earth at its creation
(“without form”); and hover is Moses’ term for the
Spirit’s activity of “moving” in creative power over the
face of the deep. God is not careless with language. His
prophet Moses had a specific reason for repeating those
key words in his farewell address. He was underscoring
the message that the salvation of Israel was a creation
event. The Covenant on Sinai was a re-creation, a
reorganization of the world.38 Similarly, St. John
borrows terminology from the same passage in Moses to
present that message to the Church: God has brought
to fulfillment the provisional re-creations of the old
order. The coming of Christ has brought about the
definitive re-creation, the New Covenant. And, as in
the days of old when God miraculously preserved Israel
in all her afflictions, providing her a Paradise in the
midst of a wilderness, so He will now nourish and
cherish the Church, His Bride and the Mother of His
only begotten Son. His Covenant people dwell in the
shade of the Glory-Cloud, in the shadow of His wings
(Ps. 17:8; 36:7; 57:1; 61:4; 91:4, 11). The wings of the
Eagle, which signify death and destruction to the
enemies of the covenant (Deut. 28:49; Job 39:27-30;
Jer. 48:40; Hos. 8:1; Hab. 1:8; Matt. 24:28), are an
emblem of peace, security, and blessing to the heirs of
Covenant grace.
Again (cf. v. 6), St. John makes the point that the
Woman’s flight into the wilderness is not evidence of
her abandonment by God; it is not a sign that she has
lost the battle, or that events are out of control. Rather,
she flies on eagle’s wings above the waters (v. 15) to her
place, so that she might be nourished during the period
of tribulation (cf. Luke 4:25-26), the standard three
and a half years of judgment mentioned in the prophets
– or, as St. John gives it here in the language of Daniel
7:25 and 12:7, a time and times and half a time.
Preterist commentators have traditionally seen this
passage in terms of the escape of the Judean Church
from the Edomite and Roman invasions during the
Jewish War, when, in obedience to Christ’s commands
(Matt. 24:15-28), the Christians escaped to shelter in
the caves of the desert.39 There is nothing wrong with
this view, as far as it goes, but it does not go far enough.
For St. John’s allegory of the Woman is the story of the
Church, not only a particular branch of it. The
deliverance of the Judean Church must be seen as the
primary historical referent of this text, but with the
realization that her experience is representative and
illustrative of the deliverance of the Church as a whole
in this difficult period, when the Lord prepared a table
for her in the face of her enemies (Ps. 23:5).
15-16 St. John continues his Exodus imagery,
reminding us of when the children of Israel had been
trapped “between the devil and the deep Red Sea”:
And the Serpent threw water like a river out of his
mouth after the Woman, so that he might cause her
to be swept away with the flood. Farrer says: “The
woman is treated as the congregation of Israel, saved
from Egypt, lifted by the Lord on eagle’s pinions and
brought to Sinai. The dragon’s pursuit of her by
throwing a waterflood after her is a generalized image
12:13-16
for the

 

[DHK]

MR.Camping....:laugh::laugh: Cmon DHK...give me a little slack...lol

You are the one setting dates, as is evidenced in your statement below.

All these quotes came upon 1st century Israel.

As you say Mr. Camping. But you have a problem with Scripture and its author.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 1:9)

John was on the "isle that is called Patmos" when he wrote this book.
This happened during the rule of Domitian. You can check the history books but there is no other conclusion one can come to. All reputable commentaries, Bible dictionaries, Bible encyclopedias, etc. tell us that John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos during the reign of Domitian whose rule was between 95-98 A.D. Your entire theology is built on a false premise, the premise that this book was written in an earlier time, but there is no evidence for it. This books refutes it thoroughly. If anything refutes Preterism, the simple date of the Book of Revelation does, where in the last chapter Jesus promises three times that He is coming again, and John prays "Even so come Lord Jesus."

 

[thomas15]

Iconoclast, you provide lots of opportunities of dispute when the Bible and it's clear teaching is given the light of day. But looking beyond that and trying to re-focus, I ask the question how is it that we can be this far into this thread and still there is no answer from the preterist crowd to the OP question: "How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy?"

 

[revmwc]

here is part 2.....it did not fit
The Dragon Attacks the Church (12:13-17)

I can't get past the first sentence of part 1 seeing the untruth of satan being displaced. Satan is still the prince and power of the air at this time. Paul even made it clear in writtign to the believers of Ephesus in Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

And when we see the Lord warring against the devil,
we also see Him being given angelic assistance (cf.
Matt. 4:11; 26:53; Luke 22:43). As Michael leading the
angels, Christ led His apostles against the Dragon,
driving him out of his position. The message of the
Gospels is that in the earthly ministry of Christ and His
disciples, Satan lost his place of power and fell down to
the earth:

We see this totally shown by Paul to be a false statement or Paul had it wrong. So the whole article starts with a false pretext. Satan after Christ death burial and ressurection after the events of the Gospels is said by Paul to be according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:.

Now let's look at the passage he is refering too in your quote.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Jesus was led up and tempted by the Devil and passed the test, satan was still able throughout Christ earthly ministry to attacke Him and did multiple times, satan wasn't taken out of his postition.

Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Did He call them down, we see no He did not instead He went to the cross and died on that cross again satan was not driven from his position.

Luke 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

Again Christ was in agony in the garden and in order to make it to the cross needed strength. The Father sent an Angel to strengthen him. Satan is not displaced in this passage. Yet in the article you posted it begins that these verses show satan displaced and cast to the earth. Contradicting Paul's teachiing that satan is currently the the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:. So why read any further when it begins with a false message.
Revelation 12 shows Satans full attack on Israel in the 70th week of Daniels prophecy, the tribulation.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

483 years and guess what Messiah was cut off just as was predicted.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Then for 7 years God will confirm the covenant with Israel and at the 3 1/2 year point the sacrifice and oblation will cease and the abomination that maketh desolate will stand in the temple.

Notice revelation 12: 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 1260 days the nation Israel's remnant will be fed in the wilderness stronghold, duirng which the Satan is cast down. Notice Daniel 12 with Revelation 12.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

Michael is seen in both passages warring with Satan and prevailing casting him to earth, parallel passages and prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled. This is still yet to come to pass. God is not through with His nation Israel and has plans to restore her. Christ will be literally reigning on the Earthly Throne of David for 1000 years Revelation tells us. Scripture can't be clearer on this.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Notice again for 42 months the Gentiles will tread the holy city under foot, the beast that comes from the sea will speak great things and blasphemies for forty two months and the false prophet will place the image of the beast where it can be worshipped of the people, this is the abomination that maketh desolate.

3 1/2 years = 42 months or 1260 days these all fit with Daniels prophecy perfectly and with Revelation perfectly. God is not through with nation Israel. Satan is currently the prince and power of the air and is to be cast down by Michael during the tribulation period as predicted by Daniel and Revelation. Scripture is very clear and the article you posted doesn't fit with these passages and begins with a false pretext.