How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy

[revmwc]

Alot of times the NT interprets OT scriptures in a spiritual way...that means something literally...but the fulfillment is not strictly in the literal realm..

But how do you determine that God intended it as either literal or mtaphorical, what is the key that defines it? is it based on the Preterist belief that since Christ came metaphorically in 70 A.D. that everything in prophecy therefore is based on the metaphorical reasoning or is there a specific scripture that says from this point on you must define it metaphorically? What is the determining factor?

 

[DHK]

A literal interpretation does not allow you to call it a "renovation".

Does your view say that 2 Thess. 1 is the same event as 2 Peter 3?

A spiritual interpretation that puts the coming of Christ at 70 A.D. puts you in the same camp as the J.W.'s SDA's, and Harold Camping, all of whom have demonstrated that they are false prophets and under OT law would be stoned.
You have no empirical evidence that Christ came at that time. That is what is required for a person to say that Christ came at that time. Without that evidence your claim is false. Your are very fortunate that we don't live under OT law.

 

[Iconoclast]

But how do you determine that God intended it as either literal or mtaphorical, what is the key that defines it? is it based on the Preterist belief that since Christ came metaphorically in 70 A.D. that everything in prophecy therefore is based on the metaphorical reasoning or is there a specific scripture that says from this point on you must define it metaphorically? What is the determining factor?

REVMAC,

It is looking at all the same verses that Premill look at.....but seeing if ,or how many have been fulfilled,and what is yet future....

In other words.....If you study the word......world ..or age....

If the word means the end of the age....the fulfillment of those verses could be speaking of the end of the jewish temple system and worship......
and the beginning of Jesus building the NT temple 1 cor 3.

16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

So....revmac.....hold on to your 7yr tribulation, antichrist ,mark of beast,etc.for a minute or two...instead consider this.....

That Jesus was warning those first century believers about the coming judgement....and the end of the age.....The jewish age...sacrificial system,etc

That it was ending at the cross and transitioning into the NT church....The kingdom coming to earth in Jesus.

He builds His temple....the NT church......Like the shekinah glory filling the temple in 1 kings...pentecost is the Baptism of The Church as the temple of God. ezk 40-47 Joel 2-3 Isa 2 ;
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


REVMAC....what if heb 12 :22-24 is the fulfillment of this?

What if this is exactly what we see in the spread of the gospel now????

1Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

2Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. 4Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

5For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

I was taught that Isa.11 is the future millenial kingdom...
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


and yet Paul says this in Romans 15;

8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. 13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

14And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

15Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

16That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

It says it is now as the gospel is preached.....not still off in the future....

Then there is always GaTell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
l 4;
Not earthly Jerusalem...see it???

 

[revmwc]

REVMAC,

It is looking at all the same verses that Premill look at.....but seeing if ,or how many have been fulfilled,and what is yet future....

In other words.....If you study the word......world ..or age....

If the word means the end of the age....the fulfillment of those verses could be speaking of the end of the jewish temple system and worship......
and the beginning of Jesus building the NT temple 1 cor 3.




So....revmac.....hold on to your 7yr tribulation, antichrist ,mark of beast,etc.for a minute or two...instead consider this.....

That Jesus was warning those first century believers about the coming judgement....and the end of the age.....The jewish age...sacrificial system,etc

That it was ending at the cross and transitioning into the NT church....The kingdom coming to earth in Jesus.

He builds His temple....the NT church......Like the shekinah glory filling the temple in 1 kings...pentecost is the Baptism of The Church as the temple of God. ezk 40-47 Joel 2-3 Isa 2 ;
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


REVMAC....what if heb 12 :22-24 is the fulfillment of this?

What if this is exactly what we see in the spread of the gospel now????



I was taught that Isa.11 is the future millenial kingdom...
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


and yet Paul says this in Romans 15;


It says it is now as the gospel is preached.....not still off in the future....

Then there is always GaTell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
l 4;
Not earthly Jerusalem...see it???

Let's see:
Isaiah 9: 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This is fulfilled literally in Christ first advent.

But this has yet to have a literal fulfillment Isaiah 9: 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

So it it metaphorical making half the prophecy fulfilled literally and the other half metaphorically?

Then we see Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Seems the Lord will come and set His foot (literally) upon the Mount of Olives and it will cleave (split) rifght down the middle. The notice verse 11 "Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited" this is still yet to be fulfilled so the destruction of Jerusalem and the nation Israel was done as a judgement upon them but according to Zechariah they shall return and the Lord will be with them and Jerusalem will be dwelt in safely. Or is this metaphorically fulfilled and not literally. No time since the Jews have lived in the land have they ever lived in peace. This shows Christ will literally return and verse 9 makes it very clear "the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one" This is not occuring today not eve n metaphorically for Christ is not recognized to be the ONE LORD and HIS NAME ONE" not today not right now.
Too many old testament prophecies need to be fulfilled for Him to have come in 70 A.D. and all to be accomplished.
So how would you determine this passage to be metaphorical rather than literal?

 

[thomas15]

A spiritual interpretation that puts the coming of Christ at 70 A.D. puts you in the same camp as the J.W.'s SDA's, and Harold Camping, all of whom have demonstrated that they are false prophets and under OT law would be stoned.
You have no empirical evidence that Christ came at that time. That is what is required for a person to say that Christ came at that time. Without that evidence your claim is false. Your are very fortunate that we don't live under OT law.

A careful reading of Scripture will bear this out. To me it comes down to the fact that some simply do not want to be associated with pre-mil theology for social reasons and thus opt for a "deeper smarter understanding" of theology regardless of the lack of Biblical and historical evidence for their position.

Moses, an individual who put it all on the line for Jehovah, who led the captives free, still was not allowed into the land because of disobedience, for not taking God's word seriously. The NT could not be clearer with respect to the situation when Jesus returns but there are those who claim to be born again who think the details don't matter and that Jehovah speaks in vague generalities.

 

[DHK]

A careful reading of Scripture will bear this out. To me it comes down to the fact that some simply do not want to be associated with pre-mil theology for social reasons and thus opt for a "deeper smarter understanding" of theology regardless of the lack of Biblical and historical evidence for their position.

It seems like that doesn't it?
"I don't like that guy's theology though it may be Biblical, therefore I will make up my own no matter how outlandish it may be."

 

[thomas15]

It seems like that doesn't it?
"I don't like that guy's theology though it may be Biblical, therefore I will make up my own no matter how outlandish it may be."

Not to go off on a bender, but...

Here is a question that the preterist cannot answer: How many times must a student of the Word of God read the Bible from cover to cover, or for how many years must you study the Scriptures without the use of preterist commentary before the light bulb goes on and you say "Ahh, I get it now, Jesus returned in AD 70 when the Roman army sacked Jerusalem!"

Do you have to read the Bible a minimum of 100 times cover to cover or spend 30 years study in seminary devoted to a study of Scripture? If only Jerusalem had stayed sacked, they might have a point to argue. Pity the poor dispy who thinks that Jesus will lead the troops at his return, no rather the honor goes to the heathen general Titus (according to the preterist).

 

[JesusFan]

Not to go off on a bender, but...

Here is a question that the preterist cannot answer: How many times must a student of the Word of God read the Bible from cover to cover, or for how many years must you study the Scriptures without the use of preterist commentary before the light bulb goes on and you say "Ahh, I get it now, Jesus returned in AD 70 when the Roman army sacked Jerusalem!"

Do you have to read the Bible a minimum of 100 times cover to cover or spend 30 years study in seminary devoted to a study of Scripture? If only Jerusalem had stayed sacked, they might have a point to argue. Pity the poor dispy who thinks that Jesus will lead the troops at his return, no rather the honor goes to the heathen general Titus (according to the preterist).

Wouldn't a solid majority of the early Church fathers though teach this to be true, as many of them were disiplined under Apostles, or their successors?

 

[thomas15]

Wouldn't a solid majority of the early Church fathers though teach this to be true, as many of them were disiplined under Apostles, or their successors?

They (1st generation fathers) were mostly pre-mil with respect to the return of Christ. 2 Thess ch 2 and other NT passages lay out the conditions at the time of His return. It's really simple but the preterist see no need to place historical fact next to the details of Holy Writ. They don't want to be made fun of at their covered dish dinners.

 

[Iconoclast]

But how do you determine that God intended it as either literal or mtaphorical, what is the key that defines it? is it based on the Preterist belief that since Christ came metaphorically in 70 A.D. that everything in prophecy therefore is based on the metaphorical reasoning or is there a specific scripture that says from this point on you must define it metaphorically? What is the determining factor?

I am a partial preterist.....Jesus did not physically return in 70ad.....the coming was a coming in judgement upon the apostate nation of Israel.
IN mt it says the sign of the Son of man in heaven....not on earth.....
the phrase coming in the clouds was used in the OT for God coming in judgement.

Jesus physically comes again on the last day.

is there a specific scripture that says from this point on you must define it metaphorically? What is the determining factor?[

REVMAC......the determining factor must be scripture alone...for example


the mark on the forehead....rev 13......we have it used already in ezk9....

It was not a laser mark, or a tatoo, or a credit card...they were marked spiritually by angelic beings.....

Ezekiel 9

1He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

2And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

3And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

8And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

9Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.

10And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

This already happened...so why would we look for a non scriptural solution to the mark? This mark was actual in that the angelic beings could seperate the sheep from the goats...yet it was not visible and literal in the natural realm.

 

[Iconoclast]

revmac....

look at Joel here.....as Peter says it was fulfilled at Pentecost;

21Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

22Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

This is already true.....acts2:16

romans 10...who calls upon the lord shall be saved.


in chapter 3
16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

REVMAC...this is now...the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem

pull out the concordance and look at all the prophets that speak of Zion and Jerusalem prophetically....

Ask yourself this question....could it be fulfilled now from the spiritual Zion and Jerusalem...The Lord reigning from Heaven.

I was taught that all of these verses will be fulfilled on earth in the future....then i read some men who challenged the reader to look at the verses in this other way....and it really fits..and does no damage to anything.

 

[DHK]

I am a partial preterist.....Jesus did not physically return in 70ad.....the coming was a coming in judgement upon the apostate nation of Israel.
IN mt it says the sign of the Son of man in heaven....not on earth.....
the phrase coming in the clouds was used in the OT for God coming in judgement.

Jesus physically comes again on the last day.



REVMAC......the determining factor must be scripture alone...for example


the mark on the forehead....rev 13......we have it used already in ezk9....

It was not a laser mark, or a tatoo, or a credit card...they were marked spiritually by angelic beings.....



This already happened...so why would we look for a non scriptural solution to the mark? This mark was actual in that the angelic beings could seperate the sheep from the goats...yet it was not visible and literal in the natural realm.

Recently someone told me that I talk too much about context. I can't help it. It is the clue to understanding Scripture. Remember that the Scriptures were written without chapter divisions. In fact the OT didn't even have the vowel markings until the Masoretes came and did that favor for us. To get a better idea of the context of this passage go a couple verses before 9:1

Then he said to me, Have you seen this, son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have turned again to provoke me to anger: and, behold, they put the branch to their nose. (Ezekiel 8:17)

Ezekiel is an apocalyptic book with many symbols in it. But it was written during an historical period time for a specific period. Ezekiel was writing about the sin of Judah and their consequent judgment. It was terrible and their judgment would be terrible. Chapter 8 describes their violence in no uncertain terms. If you read the chapter you will find some of the same imagery that there is in chapter nine but it is easier to understand.

Yahweh said to him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark on the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry over all the abominations that are done in the midst of it. (Ezekiel 9:4)
--There is not much difference between this and the passover before the last plague. God set a mark on those that had repented that would not receive the judgment of God. This all has to do with Judah. It was about that time, in that period of history. You cannot confuse this with the mark of the beast in Revelation chapter 13.

This chapter is about God's mark.
Rev.13 is about the mark of the beast, Satan's mark.
Rev. 7 God seals 144,000 Jews, 7,000 from each tribe. That doesn't happen here either.
All three of the above events differ greatly from each other and cannot be confused.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK...
Thanks for your response. I was taught the premillenial system first. I know the teaching about the mark of the beast....and you are correct with context,and chapter divisions.....so with that in mind ...go a little further to rev 14...

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
[/QUOTE


DHK...here is a contrast of those who have the Fathers name in their foreheads...and those who have the mark of the beast.
This is the same imagery that took place in EZk 9....it was those marked by God who were spared the judgement...those in 14:1 have the fathers name written in thier forehead...as opposed to the mark of the beast..

DO you think it is literally written? Do you think it is the same thing?
In other words....if God used this language and imagery in EZK 9...why would it now mean something outside the bible....like a laser mark, or gps number ...why go outside of scripture when these are written for us?
The apostles always referred to the OT and The Spirit had them explain the texts in the NT reality.

Ps. DHK ...as a bonus...verse 8.....instead of being a "restored end time babylon" what if babylon the great city which is fallen...is actually 1st century Jerusalem....being metaphorically refered to as babylon...
4In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.

5They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.

6My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

7All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.

8Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks. 9For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

10And Chaldea shall be a spoil: all that spoil her shall be satisfied, saith the LORD.

11Because ye were glad, because ye rejoiced, O ye destroyers of mine heritage, because ye are grown fat as the heifer at grass, and bellow as bulls;

12Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that


Now look at the language of rev 18
Revelation 18

1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

 

[DHK]

DHK...here is a contrast of those who have the Fathers name in their foreheads...and those who have the mark of the beast.
This is the same imagery that took place in EZk 9....it was those marked by God who were spared the judgement...those in 14:1 have the fathers name written in thier forehead...as opposed to the mark of the beast..

DO you think it is literally written? Do you think it is the same thing?
In other words....if God used this language and imagery in EZK 9...why would it now mean something outside the bible....like a laser mark, or gps number ...why go outside of scripture when these are written for us?

The Bible doesn't say what it looks like and neither did I. But that doesn't make the two events the same.
Imagery is similar because both books are apocalyptic in nature.
Language is similar because the subject is judgment in both situations.
However, the context, the situation, the history, are all different. The marks or seals are entirely different used for different purposes at different times in history.

The apostles always referred to the OT and The Spirit had them explain the texts in the NT reality.

The apostles don't ALWAYS refer to the OT. Sometimes they refer to the words of Jesus, occasionally to apocryphal literature. Paul quoted a Greek Poet, a Cretian philosopher, etc. Not everything is related to the OT. The NT doesn't refer to this passage.

Ps. DHK ...as a bonus...verse 8.....instead of being a "restored end time babylon" what if babylon the great city which is fallen...is actually 1st century Jerusalem....being metaphorically refered to as babylon...
4In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.

This did not happen yet has it. Judah and Israel did not come together to seek the Lord; they came together to crucify Christ!! In no way did Israel seek the Lord in the first century. The times of the Gentiles are still here. The passage that you are considering is still future.

 

[Iconoclast]

This did not happen yet has it. Judah and Israel did not come together to seek the Lord; they came together to crucify Christ!! In no way did Israel seek the Lord in the first century. The times of the Gentiles are still here. The passage that you are considering is still future.

Some see it happening right here:Isa49

1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.

5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

verse 8 quoted in 2cor 6;
Corinthians 6

1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Why do you think the Holy Spirit brought this to Pauls mind?

DHK.....I know you and revmac hold the classic position..... I am not asking this so much to quiz you on it....i am trying to show that a solid biblical case can be made using these verses as offered.
I remember the first time I met a solid amill believer I kept telling him...bob how can you not see this....as i would quote fromZech 14 or jer 30:7 or dan 9;24-27 or 1thess4 ......and he kept saying i like all those verses also???
I remember praying for him,lol.....he was okay as he was...he looked for and believed in a literal second coming....just had a different calendar,and understanding of the nature of the Kingdom .
I think both you and revmac...offer a solid premill posistion and you are trying to be faithful.
I am still studying post/and amill.... more with a view to understand the Kingdom as seperate from the church...how much they blend together, what are we to do now in the kingdom, and what is unique to the church.

 

[DHK]

Some see it happening right here:Isa49


verse 8 quoted in 2cor 6;
Corinthians 6

1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

The way you dissect the Bible is terrible.
Read past verse 8.
Has this happened yet?

They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. (Isaiah 49:10-12)

Has Israel come to the place where they will never hunger, never thirst, where the heat or sun will never smite them or make them uncomfortable, etc. Has that ever happened in history? I think you know the answer. You are taking Scripture out of its context once again. The Scripture describes a time which is yet future, a time when Christ will come again, and lift the curse from off this world.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. (Isaiah 49:10-12)

Has Israel come to the place where they will never hunger, never thirst, where the heat or sun will never smite them or make them uncomfortable, etc. Has that ever happened in history? I think you know the answer. You are taking Scripture out of its context once again. The Scripture describes a time which is yet future, a time when Christ will come again, and lift the curse from off this world.
__________________
DHK

I think this has happened at the cross for the Israel of God.
Jesus told the woman at the well those who come to Him will never thirst.
Sinim is China....they worship Jesus there also.
Isa.49 describes and sums up the Servant of the Lords work..as an individual and as head of the new spiritual nation. I would not dis miss it so fast.

The Ot shadows and types were imperfect...yet we are told that all these things were written for us,upon whom the end of the age has come.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I think this has happened at the cross for the israel of God.

It doesn't really matter what you think here.
I ask again:

Has Israel come to the place where they will never hunger, never thirst, where the heat or sun will never smite them or make them uncomfortable, etc. Has that ever happened in history?

 

[Iconoclast]

It doesn't really matter what you think here.
I ask again:

Has Israel come to the place where they will never hunger, never thirst, where the heat or sun will never smite them or make them uncomfortable, etc. Has that ever happened in history?

DHK,

It doesn't really matter what you think here

Ok ...let me say it like this.

It has happened at the cross for all the elect,,,,the Israel of God.

You do not see it...because your false dispensational ideas,seperating Israel and the church after God makes them one new man you will never see it correctly as long as you divide what God has joined together.

The other day you gave an good explanation to Winman...about his error on Rom 7:9......which he promptly rejected a few posts later.
His rejection of that truth will not allow him to have a corect understanding of what he clearly misses.

In the same way.... these verses teach what they do and they teach it despite the false dispensational ideas believed by some.
If you continue holding what you hold...you will not see this either, because you will explain it away as a parenthesis.....before God gets back to physical apostate Israel.

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

DHK.....I am pretty sure you are not looking to change what you hold to...was just trying to show how others view the verses. You have a different view....held by many....but wrong.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

Ok ...let me say it like this.

It has happened at the cross for all the elect,,,,the Israel of God.

Look at the question again:
Has Israel come to the place where they will never hunger, never thirst, where the heat or sun will never smite them or make them uncomfortable, etc. Has that ever happened in history?

Now explain to me in history (give dates, times, places, etc.), where Israel has never hungered or thirsted. They crucified Christ and forty years later their city and their temple was destroyed, and they were scattered over the face of the earth. In WWII they faced the horrible holocaust of Hitler, the very opposite of the teaching given in that verse. The goal of the Arab nations even now, is wipe them off of the map, shove them into the sea and get rid of them completely. All of this completely contradicts this verse and the promises that are made in the chapter you are quoting. I am not wrong. You are wrong; very wrong.

You do not see it...because your false dispensational ideas,seperating Israel and the church after God makes them one new man you will never see it correctly as long as you divide what God has joined together.

My view of Scripture is not wrong. I have just pointed out how you have a very biased and distorted view of Scripture that it doesn't even make sense.

In the same way.... these verses teach what they do and they teach it despite the false dispensational ideas believed by some.
If you continue holding what you hold...you will not see this either, because you will explain it away as a parenthesis.....before God gets back to physical apostate Israel.

They teach two things:
1. That judgment was coming on Judah at that time in history.
2. That there would be a future blessing on Israel (both Israel and Judah combined), which has not happened yet. It would happen when there is a temple, when they are one nation, and the blessings would be great. That has not happened yet. I would rather believe the Bible then your imaginations. Speculations and philosophy are not for me. I stick to the Word of God.

DHK.....I am pretty sure you are not looking to change what you hold to...was just trying to show how others view the verses. You have a different view....held by many....but wrong.

It is not wrong. My view is Biblical.
Your view is founded on unbiblical speculation. That is all it is--speculation. There is no empirical evidence that Christ ever returned in 70 A.D. That makes the preterist as much as a false prophet as Ellen G. White or at the very least as Harold Camping. I don't want to be associated with either.