How does OSAS fail the Sola Scriptura Test?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: I find that quite a rude comment. There is no "indoctrination" when considering the perseverance and preservation of the saints. It's a Biblical concept long held by many faithful leaders of the body of Christ. Why do you feel a need to be so snotty?

HP: I have always wondered about this verse. 1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home:

:wavey::tonofbricks:

Just kidding Ann.:saint:

My comment was in no wise snotty. There are some on this list that need to come to grips with the philosophical underpinnings of the theological theories they espouse. Sola Scriptura is a chimera, a sophistic notion and that without merit.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP your comment was snotty and you could not give a reasonable answer after I shown you what the BIBLE says about the "PAST SINS".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: HP your comment was snotty and you could not give a reasonable answer after I shown you what the BIBLE says about the "PAST SINS".

HP: I just believe the Bible, and when it identifies past as past, I believe it. It does not say present sins persisted in, or future sins yet to be committed, it simply says, sins that are past. Why spoil the simple and plain Biblical truth with your philosophical explanation?

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: I just believe the Bible, and when it identifies past as past, I believe it. It does not say present sins persisted in, or future sins yet to be committed, it simply says, sins that are past. Why spoil the simple and plain Biblical truth with your philosophical explanation?

Good theology can help clear things...try comparing scripture with scripture as I have pointed to you. Eternal redemption ring a bell?

 

[steaver]

As a Baptist, I did EXACTLY what you are asking Bob to do. As many, many other Baptists have done and as a result have left the Baptist church behind for the Catholic Church. Of course you will say I have been deceived. Each day I grow more in the 'faith once delivered'.

Was you saved Lori when you were a baptist?

If yes, do you feel you are more saved by being a Catholic?

 

[DHK]

If one believes their sins that they might commit in the future do not exist having already been cast into the sea of forgetfulness and that they are already forgiven before they are committed and repentance sought, they are simply deceived. Those teaching as such are teaching false doctrine and are instilling false hopes in gullible individuals.

It seems to me that false doctrine would be to deny the very words of Jesus when he says:
"I give unto them eternal life."
1. To say that eternal is not eternal but only temporary and Jesus is lying.
2. To say that giving is not giving but taking away and Jesus is lying.
3. To say that "them" are not his sheep but perhaps goats and Jesus is lying.
4. To imply that life is not life, but death, and Jesus is lying.

One lie leads to another. One denial leads to another. If you deny one part of the verse why not deny it all. Who really is teaching the false doctrine here.
There is only one way to interpret:
"I give unto them eternal life"
Words have meanings. Either Jesus meant what he said or he didn't.
Apparently you don't believe he meant what he said.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: To say that giving is not giving but taking away and Jesus is lying.

HP: Those words, if persisted in, may well haunt one for all eternity. Surely a man with your intellect could find a better way to coin your argument.

 

[DHK]

HP: In reality you do no such thing. You are interpreting Scripture from a distinctive philosophical position known the world over part and parcel to Calvinism. What is sad is that you seemingly cannot recognize the source of your indoctrination. You do not know who your doctrinal fathers really are.

I suppose that is the zenith of false indoctrination; cause the subject to believe a self -serving lie, i.e., all my beliefs are “Sola Scriptura.’

I have examined Jedi's posts carefully. I have been reading yours from ancient times. I know what you believe.
Jedi believes the Bible. It is obvious from what he posts.
You post opinion and philosophy not based on the Bible at all.
And when you see someone expound the Bible, and can't give a suitable refutation you automatically resort to name-calling with your favorite word--"Calvinist." Everyone you disagree with turns out to be a Calvinist. It doesn't matter what they believe. If they disagree with you, or you can't give a suitable biblical answer they are a Calvinist. That is the lowest form of debate there is. In fact it isn't debate at all. It is simply childish behavior. Why don't you stop it, and try some intelligent debate for once.

"The source of his indoctrination" as we all can see, is the Bible. But you resort to your name-calling--Calvinism. You disagree.

"You do not know who your doctrinal fathers really are." His are the authors of the Bible. Yours are philosophical and imaginary. Again you resort to innuendo and false accusation. This is not debate at all. I don't know if you have any concept of what debate is.

All his beliefs are sola scriptura, as he claims.
But since you deny that doctrine you infer that he is lying.
Again that is not a debate is it. It does support another Biblical truth which you deny that all men (including HP) are liars (Romans 3:4). But being called a liar, even by God, is offensive to you, and you therefore deny that truth as well.

 

[DHK]

HP: Those words, if persisted in, may well haunt one for all eternity. Surely a man with your intellect could find a better way to coin your argument.

Jesus said: "I give unto them eternal life."
Was he telling the truth or lying? You tell me.
Either he gave each one who believed on him at the point of salvation eternal life or he didn't. If you say that he didn't GIVE them eternal life, then are you not insinuating that Christ is a liar?
I believe you are.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Our hope does in fact consist of the promise and hope of eternal life, but not to the negation of contrary choice as the OSAS interpretation of our salvation imbibes. Until we cross over into eternity and stand before the Eternal Judge, the real possibility exists of deception and leaving our First Love. Pounding on the pulpit concerning the notion that anyone that disagrees with your philosophical notion of the nature of eternal salvation is calling God a liar does not suffice for evidence to support such a notion in the least. Suggesting that others are calling God a liar does not negate the many warnings in Scripture and reason (such as the concept of love)that refute the Calvinistic dogma of OSAS either.

 

[lori4dogs]

Your right lost "Baptists" join the Catholic Church, the mormons, SDA, Jehovah's witnesses while "saved" people come out of those cults and join Baptists and other evangelical churches - I Jn. 2:19

And that is where you have to go with that isn't, Dr. Walter's. Like I must never have REALLY repented of my sins and gave my life to the Lord Jesus as a Baptist for me to come a Catholic??

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lori: And that is where you have to go with that isn't, Dr. Walter's. Like I must never have REALLY repented of my sins and gave my life to the Lord Jesus as a Baptist for me to come a Catholic??

HP: That would be nothing less than a not so hidden personal attack of judging ones salvation, a violation of the rules of this forum as I recall. It would appear to me that the rules of this forum are only meant for those not presenting an 'acceptable form' of Calvinsitic theology.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

HP: That would be nothing less than a not so hidden personal attack of judging ones salvation, a violation of the rules of this forum as I recall. It would appear to me that the rules of this forum are only meant for those not presenting an 'acceptable form' of Calvinsitic theology.

No its ok to do that if your catholic because they aren't christians. Its like saying muslims aren't saved. Well, thats how the argument goes. Remember the Catholic Church is the Apostate church That Jesus was speaking of in John. I mean he may have directed it at the Jews and had judaism in mind and all the prophesy came true from the Jewish side of things but it really means the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[DHK]

Our hope does in fact consist of the promise and hope of eternal life, but not to the negation of contrary choice as the OSAS interpretation of our salvation imbibes. Until we cross over into eternity and stand before the Eternal Judge, the real possibility exists of deception and leaving our First Love.

That "real possibility does not exist. It does not exist for me and for most others that I know. Read my signature line. Do you believe it? It is found in the Bible:

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
--Do you deny this promise of Christ as well. He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Not only is he able, but he will. He has sealed me unto the day of redemption. What does it mean to seal. When I was younger I used to watch my mother preserve jams, pickles, fruits, and other vegetables. After bringing things to a boil, and then going through the process that she did, she sealed the jar with a wax seal, then it would be able to sit on a shelf for months if not years. Those pickles would last for years. They couldn't get out of those jars if they wanted to. They were sealed in. Salvation is like that. We are sealed by God's grace; kept by his power. We can't lose it if we tried. He has sealed us unto the day of redemption. His Holy Spirit dwells within us. We belong to him, are now part of his family by adoption. He will never abandon us. He has become our Father. There is no way he will never leave us. We can't get out of this if we tried. Fact is, none of that are truly saved would ever want to try. The Holy Spirit dwells within constantly changing us to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Pounding on the pulpit concerning the notion that anyone that disagrees with your philosophical notion of the nature of eternal salvation is calling God a liar does not suffice for evidence to support such a notion in the least. Suggesting that others are calling God a liar does not negate the many warnings in Scripture and reason (such as the concept of love)that refute the Calvinistic dogma of OSAS either.

What can I say if you don't believe the Bible.
The Bible makes many to those that believe on Jesus Christ that they do have eternal life. Are you going to deny them all?
The Bible makes many more promises to those that believe on Jesus Christ that Christ forgives ALL their sins: past, present and future. Will you deny all these promises as well?
That is a lot of Bible to deny.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Our hope does in fact consist of the promise and hope of eternal life, but not to the negation of contrary choice as the OSAS interpretation of our salvation imbibes. Until we cross over into eternity and stand before the Eternal Judge, the real possibility exists of deception and leaving our First Love. Pounding on the pulpit concerning the notion that anyone that disagrees with your philosophical notion of the nature of eternal salvation is calling God a liar does not suffice for evidence to support such a notion in the least. Suggesting that others are calling God a liar does not negate the many warnings in Scripture and reason (such as the concept of love)that refute the Calvinistic dogma of OSAS either.

John 5:24 Jesus said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life". Well according to scripture true believers have already crossed over. Moreover, Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. No guessing game here. So what's your excuse for not crossing over before you die? After you die it will be too late to say I did such & such! If words have meaning like Matthew 25:41 "depart from me ....into Everlasting Fire"....are you going to say everlasting is NOT everlasting? Did Jesus mean forever fire or not? Well I guess I take Jesus at His word when He said "Hath Everlasting Life" too.

 

[annsni]

HP: I have always wondered about this verse. 1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home:

:wavey::tonofbricks:

Just kidding Ann.:saint:

You DO know I was using a chainsaw today, don't you???? :saint:

My comment was in no wise snotty. There are some on this list that need to come to grips with the philosophical underpinnings of the theological theories they espouse. Sola Scriptura is a chimera, a sophistic notion and that without merit.

I felt it was snotty and I fully disagree with you on your thoughts on sola scriptura.

Now to go put a fresh new SHARP chain on the chainsaw.....

 

[steaver]

As a Baptist, I did EXACTLY what you are asking Bob to do. As many, many other Baptists have done and as a result have left the Baptist church behind for the Catholic Church. Of course you will say I have been deceived. Each day I grow more in the 'faith once delivered'.

Was you saved Lori when you were a baptist?

If yes, do you feel you are more saved by being a Catholic?

 

[annsni]

Our hope does in fact consist of the promise and hope of eternal life, but not to the negation of contrary choice as the OSAS interpretation of our salvation imbibes. Until we cross over into eternity and stand before the Eternal Judge, the real possibility exists of deception and leaving our First Love. Pounding on the pulpit concerning the notion that anyone that disagrees with your philosophical notion of the nature of eternal salvation is calling God a liar does not suffice for evidence to support such a notion in the least. Suggesting that others are calling God a liar does not negate the many warnings in Scripture and reason (such as the concept of love)that refute the Calvinistic dogma of OSAS either.

But what sins remove us from eternal life? What if I accidentally do something that is a sin and I think I have life but I actually lost it? Do I need to be saved over and over again? Does Jesus need to be sacrificed again and again? What if it's that we are saved, we sin, we lose our salvation and never can get it again like some say that Hebrews 6 says? Even a small sin could separate us from God and if we have had the Holy Spirit then lose Him, we can never be saved again. That means that there are people that God couldn't save even if He wanted to - and even if the person repented and wanted to again! I guess then it's all about me and my striving that will get me and keep me saved. Jesus dying on the cross only made it possible for me, if I'm perfect for my whole life, to be saved.

Man, what a sad, fearful, stifled life I'd have rather than being free in Christ and knowing that even if I do sin, He is faithful and just to forgive me of that sin. I know that my name is written on His hand and that cannot be blotted out. Nah - I much prefer the Biblical view MUCH better.

 

[annsni]

Its like saying muslims aren't saved.

Are you saying they are?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: Now to go put a fresh new SHARP chain on the chainsaw.....

HP: I think I am fixing to be reformed or reforming. Does that help my odds?