How does this Debate affect us practically?

Jacob,

Its not that Calvinists don't see their inconsistancies. Its just that they are ok with them because they are convinced the scripture teaches their doctrine of soteriology. Any inconsistancies that their doctrine affords they figure were meant to be by the God who gave it.

For example, they recognize that Calvinism certainly causes our minds to naturally think, "If I don't witness, it is not going to make a difference as to who does or does not go to heaven."

The problem I have is this. If this was the doctrine of the apostles why didn't they address this common misconception?

Wouldn't the natural mind of a 1st century believer have asked the same question, "Why witness?" Why doesn't any of the authors of scripture anticipate that most basic and natural response.

The same is true of the other most basic objections to Calvinism. Such as, "How can God justly condemn a man for something he has absolutely no control over."

Seems like that would have been addressed as well, if indeed Calvinism was the doctrine of the apostles.

 

The Arminian argument is the same as Paul who seeks to "move his countrymen to jealousy and thereby save SOME of them" - means and motivation directed at free will human beings to "decide" for Christ.

And the Arminian argument is that the Bible itself is teaching and promoting that model that the Arminians and Paul use - persuading rather than simply "watching what will BE - no matter what you do".

However the circular Calvinist response is "we too accept the Bible and follow its methods" without commenting on the fact that those "methods" are distinctively designed to "motivate" and appeal to "decisions" not simply "observe what WILL BE" knowing that "nothing you decide or do - or that anyone else decides or does can change it in the least".

In the mind of 4pt and 5pt Calvinism God "only cares about the FEW" of Matt 7. Nothing can change that. And those FEW WILL go to heaven - nothing can change that either. And in that brand of Calvinism it is then "ALL OF GOD" so appeals to accept Christ are not the key - nor do they make any difference at all in the outcome - according to 4pt and 5pt Calvinism.

So one can only "wonder" at the freedom that Calvinism has to adopt Arminian methods of persuasion and "appeal" to reason, emotion, urgency, crisis, etc AS IF "TODAY if you hear His voice harden not your heart" were an urgent last hour "APPEAL" to CHOOSE to respond to something - AS IF that had anything at all to do with it - when in fact it is "ALL of GOD".

In Christ,

Bob

 

What do you think happened in the Garden of Eden? You don't seem to understand the significance of Adam eating the forbidden fruit.

God didn't condemn Adam for something he had no control over, in Adam all have sinned. Death passed through Adam, in Adam all die.

How can you insinuate that God is unjust because he does not save all of Adams seed. He is merciful because he has chosen to give life to some through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There is not one person who is worthy of this redemption, not one, so don't even suggest that anyone can rightly accuse God of being unjust, mankind through Adam had control over its own destiny.

 

Of course it is ALL OF GOD, if it had anything to do with man nobody would be saved. I wish you could see man for what he is.

 

What do you think happened in the Garden of Eden? You don't seem to understand the significance of Adam eating the forbidden fruit.

God didn't condemn Adam for something he had no control over, in Adam all have sinned. Death passed through Adam, in Adam all die.

How can you insinuate that God is unjust because he does not save all of Adams seed. He is merciful because he has chosen to give life to some through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There is not one person who is worthy of this redemption, not one, so don't even suggest that anyone can rightly accuse God of being unjust, mankind through Adam had control over its own destiny. </font>[/QUOTE]Regardless of how you rationalize, explain or answer this objection you must admit it is a natural objection to your Calvinistic views.

The Arminian system gives all men the opportunity for salvation thus the verse: "God bound all men over to disobiedience so that he may have mercy on the all," is what is truly realized. Calvinism has God binding all men over to disobedience so that he can have mercy on the elect, a concept that affords this very reasonable and common objection to your system. An objection, I might remind you, that even Calvinists admit to struggling with when first learning of these doctrines.

I know the Calvinistic "pat answer" for this objection is to say, "No one deserves salvation," as if we believe differently than that, but the question is why is man held accountable for unbelief when the capasity to believe has appartantly not been given to him?

The problem I'm pointing out is that this very natural and common objection is not answered in scripture which seems quite suspicious if indeed the authors of scripture ascribed to such a doctrine.

 

Man is not under condemnation because of unbelief, he is condemned because of sin. Men will be held accountable for sin.

 

"God so loved the World...yes Really!"

In the end "God is NOT willing for ANY to persish but for ALL to come to repentance".

For He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for those of the whole world.

Now - lets see if we can get an objective answer to this.

Have you ever met a 4pt or 5pt Calvinist in a moment of reflection admitting the the view of Calvinism - the view it paints of God - is so harsh and uncaring toward your precious non-arbitrarily-selected child that "they can't think about it" As in they "won't let themselves think about it" because it is depressing. And then they make a statement of faith that amounts to "I just have faith that although it seems harsh - God has some way of making it appear loving in the end - because He surely MUSt be a loving God as the Bible says He is".

In otherwords it is the views of Calvinism that they see as causing the problem and they are clinging to some of the explicitly Arminian texts to "get them through" by faith.

At the same time we can expect to hear from Arminians at times that "God is Sovereign" and "must be working all things for good" when they consider the condition of their lost family members. They appeal to the fact that "God is in control" to re-assure them that God can turn that apparently hopeless condition around. (But of course as Arminians - they accept that God "cares" about that hopeless situation and do not have to be content with "God MIGHT care").

In Christ,

Bob

 

It does not make sense? How come? I thought God already knows who will accept His free grace and who will not. And based on His foreknowledge, isn't this already 'cemented who is going to believe'?

We will have our cake and eat it too, right. Question: Are you truly asserting that the Arminian system is 'the' perfect system without any 'contradictions'? If you do, I am not sure whether you are reading and paying attention to this thread. You might want to look around in other threads how these 'contradictions' are handled elsewhere.

Thanks

God bless

Felix

 

Depends how you view God. The Calvinist rejoices because the 'glass is half-full' whilst the Arminian bemoans the fact that it is half-empty.

 

It does not make sense? How come? I thought God already knows who will accept His free grace and who will not. And based on His foreknowledge, isn't this already 'cemented who is going to believe'?

We will have our cake and eat it too, right. Question: Are you truly asserting that the Arminian system is 'the' perfect system without any 'contradictions'? If you do, I am not sure whether you are reading and paying attention to this thread. You might want to look around in other threads how these 'contradictions' are handled elsewhere.

</font>[/QUOTE]Your comeback is weak. Your responses indicate somewhat of a concession - rather than letting the strengths of Calvinism stand tall and defend itself you had to resort to "stomping down the other side".

Foreknowledge to a non-Calvinist generally means advance knowledge of events; not pre-determination as a Calvinist interprets foreknowledge. Knowing the future is different than causing every detail of the future.

I rarely post but I read pretty much everything on this forum. I have also lived through 5 years of an attempted Calvinist takeover of our church. I am quite familiar with both sides of the debate. Although I don't have all the answers and am not sure what the perfect "system" (your word, not mine) is.

Jacob.

 

Where did you read that a Calvinist believes that God CAUSES EVERY future event?

 

Correct me then...

If man had the freedom to decide the future wouldn't that infringe on the Sovereignty of God? I constantly hear from Calvinists "Either God is Sovereign or Man is Soveriegn".

Jacob.

 

Man is not under condemnation because of unbelief, he is condemned because of sin. Men will be held accountable for sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Man was fallen and God has provided the means to avoid condemnation through belief, so man is under condemnation if they remain in unbelief.


Mr 16:16 -
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Sounds like men who are presented with the gospel are condemned because of unbelief.

 

Calvinists believe in the sovereignty of God in man's salvation.

God does not cause EVERY event, that would make God the author of evil.

 

A man is diagnosed with cancer, he refuses to undergo radiotherapy which would have cured the disease. He dies. What does it say on his death certificate?

Answer - Cause of death : Cancer

 

A man is diagnosed with cancer, he refuses to undergo radiotherapy which would have cured the disease. He dies. What does it say on his death certificate?

Answer - Cause of death : Cancer </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, cancer would be the original cause but they would have had a DNR (or similiar form), in which it would be explained that the patient refused treatment as a part of the explaination for cause of death, especially if it was certain that the treatment would have cured the disease.

There are some other obvious problems with this analogy.

1. What if all the patient could do was refuse the treatment because the doctor with treatment didn't really make it known to him?

2. What if the doctor is the one whose plan from the beginning is what bind the patient over to cancer in the first place?

3. What if that same doctor who bound all his patients over to cancer only chose to make the treatment known to a certain few, while openly rebuking the others for having cancer and not taking the treatment that they were never even aware of in the first place?

Analogies always have there weaknesses.

Here is another analogy:

Everyone on a boat is sinking and will surely drown. Everyone of them is given an opportunity to get into a life raft. Some of them refuse to get in the life rafts and drown. The cause of death is drowning but the cause of their drowning was their refusal to get in the life boat.

Same with your analogy of Cancer. Cause of death was cancer, but the cause of Cancer leading to death was their refusal to accept treatment. The second is the ultimate cause of death because the treatment is a sure cure. Nice try though.

 

Calvinists believe in the sovereignty of God in man's salvation.

God does not cause EVERY event, that would make God the author of evil. </font>[/QUOTE]So you saying God controls every event related to Salvation issues and is therefore Sovereign there but issues not related to Salvation He doesn't control every detail and is therefore not sovereign?

Jacob.

 

Jacob,

Here is a fuller explanation of the sovereignty of God which I think most Calvinists would agree with.

For God to be God He is/was/always will be in complete control at all times. This means that everything is either allowed or ordained by His Sovereign hand.

Since He is God He has the right to govern the universe and everything in it as He sees fit. He answers to no one and everything He does is perfect, righteous and fair.

Only His own will and nature bind His power. He does What He wants, When He wants, Where He wants, and To Whom He wants. It is not that a Sovereign God waits for mankind to include Him in their Plans. A Sovereign God has a plan which He includes mankind in it. Throughout the scripture we can see His Sovereign Hand and Sovereign choices. Here are just a very few examples of Scriptures that show His Sovereignty:

Sovereign Ruler : Ps. 22:28 " For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations." Ps. 103:19 "The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all."


Sovereign Will & Pleasure : Da. 4:35 " And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Ps. 115:3 " But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." Is. 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Phil. 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."


Sovereign Mercy : Ro. 9:15-16 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Ro. 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Ro. 9:22,23 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"


Sovereign Love : Eph.1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ro. 9:11,12,13 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."


Sovereign Creator : Rev.4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."


Sovereign in Salvation : 2Thess.2:13b "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" 2Tim.1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," Acts 13:48 "many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Jn.1:12,13 " But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."


Sovereign Kindness : Lu. 6:35 "But love ye your enemies, and do well, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." Mt. 5:45b "or he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."


It means that God is working in all things according to His Divine Eternal Plan which can not be stop or alter by anything or any creature. That God is not surprised by any given situation.

He Eph.1:11b "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" For true believers He is working out all the things that are happening in their lives. For their good and His glory.

Ro.8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

We know that anything good done for us including our eternal life is ordained by God's Sovereign Will and Purpose and is not out of our deserving.

Ro. 3:10,11,12 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Therefore only a God who is Sovereign deserves and receives all the Glory!

I hope this helps you to better understand the Calvinist view on Sovereignty.

Enda

 

Ok, lets take this statement and unpack it:

I assume that the things that God allows are like sin or evil and the things he ordains are like redemption through Christ and such as this. Is that right?

If so, how do you come to the conclusion that God ordains, meaning to cause with certainty (in this instance), the salvation of individuals? How do you know that God doesn't "allow" man to believe or continue in unbelief?

If God is soveriegn in allowing man to choose sin, can't God remain soveriegn while allowing man to choose belief?

In short, how do you know that salvation is under ORDAINATION and not under ALLOWANCE. Does that question make sense?

What do you think?