How does this Debate affect us practically?

Brother Bill,

The question on the surface seems fair enough, but it is actually convoluted because the Word of God does not teach that in God's Sovereignty, man is without volition, or the power of choice.

Rather, it teaches that given the choice, and because of the fall of Adam, the will of man is constrained or in bondage, that he is inclined to choose evil.

We must start with the basic Biblical truth that the heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9) where man is in bondage to sin, and yet he is accountable for his evil.

Sovereignty does not negate this human responsibility, rather, it is the gift of God in propitiation for it. His right to redeem from among these wicked, whosoever he elects (chooses).

Personally I think the difference in your beliefs and mine are based on our views of what happened in the Garden of Eden and what the fall meant to Adams descendants.

You always start off from the premise that God created man in bondage to sin. If that was the case you might have a point when you say that the Calvinist view makes God unjust in only saving the elect. My point is that we (through Adam) are responsible for our own depravity and bondage therefore God is merciful in that He chose to save some.

In essence you are saying that God can only be just if He saves ALL men as if He had an obligation to save any.

Would you agree that this is where the difference lies?

 

To answer the question directly, I believe that salvation is under ORDINATION because man being under bondage to sin and would not choose salvation if it were under ALLOWANCE.

Also consider 2Tim.1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Why has God not called us according to our works?, if we were capable of choosing good over evil and salvation over damnation then He could have elected us according to our works. Outside of Gods sovereign will and grace all men would perish by choice.

 

This doesn't make any sense because God gave us the choice knowing that we were in the fallen state as the means for us to excape the consequeses of that fallen nature. Why would God present fallen man with a choice in which they could only choose what He had determined. That's not a choice by anyone's defination.

Yep, man's heart is deceitful but where in scripture does that mean the heart is unable to believe in the Holy Spirit wrought gospel message?

Problem. The bible doesn't say, "Whosoever He elects" it says, "Whosoever believes." There is a difference

So you deny the biblical teaching that God bound us all over to disobedience?

Nope. If God wanted to keep Jesus in heaven and let us all go to hell, he could have. But, I'm not arguing about what God could have done, I'm debating about what God promises in his word.

The injustice of God in your system comes in the fact that you say some people can't even understand the truths of the gospel and so be saved and are held accountable for that. Understanding is key for man to be without excuse, as Romans 1 explains. Your system leaves man with an excuse.

 

To answer the question directly, I believe that salvation is under ORDINATION because man being under bondage to sin and would not choose salvation if it were under ALLOWANCE.

Also consider 2Tim.1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Why has God not called us according to our works?, if we were capable of choosing good over evil and salvation over damnation then He could have elected us according to our works. Outside of Gods sovereign will and grace all men would perish by choice. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, but I don't see how this passage shows that God has individually ordained certain individuals unto salvation. It seems that "allowance" would still work with this passage.

 

You just confirm what I thought all along, you want no part in Adam's sin. You don't accept that we all sinned in Adam. God bound us over to sin, but only because we made that choice ourselves through Adam.

Until you admit that you are guilty with Adam and worthy of Hell for that reason alone you will never understand how merciful God really is. There is no injustice in the Calvinist position.

 

Of course I don't want any part in Adam's sin, do you?

Wrong. God bound us all over to sin so that he may have mercy on us all. That's what the scripture says. I do accept that we are declared guilty because of the results of Adam's sin. I don't believe those results included mankind's inability to respond to God's solution to that fallen nature, as you do.

I am guilty with Adam and worthy of Hell, and believe me I understand how merciful my God really is, but there is still injustice in the Calvinist position because it contradicts the clear teaching of scripture and makes God out to be the one responsible for our rejection of His provision.