How does this fit the Millenium?

If someone used that argument, what would you use as a defense against it? I understand your point, however if "context" is not given you must use other scripture to determine what the "context" is. Therefore if God's atonement was just for those of the Middle East then salvation would not be available for us. Yet we know that not to be true, so the context is definitely global.


It seems the "physical" aspects all involve a local/regional fulfillment, but the "spiritual" would be global in nature. I've never really thought about that till now, but it seems to be correct. That requires more study.


Consider these verses with their greek:

Matt.24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh )for a testimony unto all the nations ( eáqnov ); and then shall the end come.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world ( ko/smov ), and preach the gospel to the whole creation .(ktiðsiv)

Matt.28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations (eáqnov ), baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth ( gh=),


Now are those global or regional? I was always taught they were global yet notice what Paul writes:

Col.1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world ( ko/smov ) bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation ( ktiðsiv )under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister

Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov) unto obedience of faith:

Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).

You see? It is possible those were miraculous global fulfillments but doubtful. We have to be very careful when trying to determine local verses global. Like I said, most seem to point to local/regional fulfillment.

The fact that Christianity spread to me, proves the context as global. As far as physical judgement is concerned, Jesus spoke of it concerning the Jews, not the Chinese or Mexicans. To assume global is a mistake in my opinion.

I could start with scriptures that indicate the world never ends and derive my eschatology from that.

Is 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end , upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.

Ps. 148:1 Praise ye Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah from the heavens: Praise him in the heights.
2 Praise ye him, all his angels: Praise ye him, all his host.
3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: Praise him, all ye stars of light.
4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, And ye waters that are above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of Jehovah; For he commanded, and they were created.
6 He hath also established them for ever and ever: He hath made a decree which shall not pass away.

Ecc 1:4 One generation goeth, and another generation cometh; but the earth abideth for ever .

Eph 3:21 unto him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all generations for ever and ever. Amen.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:

Preterism allows me to start from scripture and end with my view of eschatology or vice verse. Either way it ends up the same.

Does this sound like the Vatican? This describes the loss of her commerce:

Rev. 18:10 standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, for no man buyeth their merchandise any more;
12 merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stone, and pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet; and all thyine wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel made of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble;
13 and cinnamon, and spice, and incense, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep; and merchandise of horses and chariots and slaves; and souls of men.

This describes 1st century Jerusalem.

Scripture tells us the New Jerusalem is the church.

Rev 21:9 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride , the wife of the Lamb.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

The contrast in Revelation is between the Jerusalem below and the Jerusalem from above. One is judged for her harlotry the other is revealed from Heaven and is perfect.

 

This still assumes, without any biblical proof that because it spread to us, then it is for all. But the whole problem is, I believe your position calls into question what exactly "salvation" is to begin with. It seems that in your method, all the scriptures we take to mean partaking in the resurrection of the just, and escaping Hell, you take to mean escaping the physical judgment of Jerusalem in AD70, and becoming apart of this new "kingdom" on earth. Therefore, "salvation" in that case would only have meaning for those living in the area at the time. To us now, (and the rest of the world) it is all a done deal. God has no real plan for the world today; all that's left for us is to die, and then float off to some new kind of existence, which is barely revealed in scripture (after many otherwise pertinent passages are applied to AD70).

But before those "forevers", the world will at some point be restored. Else, in your view, the world will go on like this either until someone rises and destroys it (very likely, given technology) or the sun expands into a red giant in 5 billion years. Either way, it is in a state of decay and cannot last forever into his state.

Yes. But it also describes can describe the Vatican. It is not only a city, but also a state, and probably does carry on some commerce, or at least will, when the endtime events start unfurling, and more people are drawn to foxhole type "religion".

Yes, but that old Jerusalem is long gone. In its place is the institution that was supposed to be that new heavenly city (certainly claimed to be), but instead followed right behind the old Jerusalem in harlotry. Fits perfectly in an antitypical sense.

 

Some other good verses on "City" and "the Kingdom" that I never got to point out:

Heb. 11:10 Abraham "waited for the city"
13 He and the others "all died in faith, not receiving the promises, but having seen them afar off"
16 "God...has prepared a city for them"

Luke 13:28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, and you yourself thrust out".
Since the saints were not physically (visibly) raised in AD70, as you will admit, then you would have to say this was heaven (see Heb.11:16 again), but this shows that that ultimately is "the Kingdom" that was "the promise".

 

No. It is appointed unto man once to die then the judgement.

I looked up the word "world" in the greek, just as I thought Luke 2:1 and John 3:16 uses different greek words.

Luke 2:1
oiÎkoumeÑnh
1 the inhabited earth
a. the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
b. the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
c. the whole inhabited earth, the world
d. the inhabitants of the earth, men
2 the universe, the world

John 3:16

ko/smov

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:

the world, the universe

the circle of the earth, the earth

the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

any aggregate or general collection of

particulars of any sort

the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

So it is easy to separate local verse global meaning when speaking of these 2 verses. Notice these two:

Matt. 24:3 and Matt 28:20 uses the greek word aion which means "age".

Ecc 1:4 One generation goeth, and another generation cometh; but the earth abideth for ever .


Is it your view the "for ever" doesn't begin til after the New heavens and New Earth?

Rev 16:6 for they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and blood hast thou given them to drink: they are worthy.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

Jesus speaking to the Old Covenant Jews:

Mt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous,
30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets .
31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets .
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

To "fill up" means no more afterward. This generation would fill up the measure then would be judged for it.

35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation .

Yes the physical Jerusalem was destroyed, but the spiritual Jerusalem is here. You state :

(certainly claimed to be),
were the writers of the New Testament wrong?

That city is the New Jerusalem, the New Covenant. That is what they died before receiving.

See Rev 21:9,10,14 and compare it to Eph 2:19-22.

 

And that's about the only passage left. That and a couple of others, such as 2Cor.5:10. By themselves, they are so vague, while all the more detailed descriptions of judgment are applied to AD70.

So then is 'kosmos' used ONLY with the passages you say are universal, while 'oikomene' and 'aion' are always used for what you say is local? That's worth a study.

It simply means from then on. It doesn't preclude the restoration of the earth later. Sin won't go on forever.

Yes, but "prophets" was a Church office also. "Fill up the measure" may have applied only to the Jews, but we are not discussing that passage, but rather Rev., which I beleve, addresses both type antitype.

No, but then there is still a false 'city' or harlot today.

Still, they were never "seen in" that city, as Jesus said they would. They died before it. Even if you try to say something like, they were there in spirit, that would still not be perceived by the [unspiritual] people Christ was talking to.

 

Mt. 16:27
Rev 20:11-15
I thess 4:16
Acts 17:31
Mt. 12:41
II Pet. 2: 4,9
Heb 6:2

These are but a few of the verses that speak of the spiritual judgement. Which verses do you believe speak of the last judgement that I apply to AD 70?

Actually aion is mis-translated in the KJV, it is corrected in the NKJV and used as "age". Definitately worth the study. Why don't you do that and let me know what you come up with.

Only if you believe the church is imperfect. We have put on the righteousness of God. Does God see sin when He looks at you?

OT saints are in the New Jerusalem today. They have been since the Parousia.

 

And again you don't/won't/can't answer my questions.

 

Precisely those!

There is still a false Church that hasgrown out of the true one (and yes, it are no longer "in the spiritual city"). So it is now in the same role that physical Jerusalem was in during the NT times. Remember, this is typology we are dealing with.

Isn't the New Jerusalem the Church? They are not in the Church today. Or is it Heaven? Well, that would come closer to our view, which says the final fulfillment is after we die and are resurrected. Or is it supposed to be both? In any case, those nconverted, unspiritual people Jesus was speaking to did not "see" the saints in the New Jerusalem; neither physically,nor ven if this is "spiritual", such things are not discerned by the unconverted, natural man (but remain foolishness). In the second resurrection (White Throne judgment), it will be quite a different story, however.

 

I'm confused. I was assuming you meant physical judgement of the jews. We would probably agree on which verses refer to the physical judgement, such as Matt 23 and 24, and which apply to the spiritual. We just disagree on the "when."

We disagree on what the word "church" refers to. I believe the church to be the "Bride of Christ" anything else is not the church.

No, it is now a spiritual entity, not contained in the physical. My typology is that the Old Covenant Jerusalem was a type of the New Covenant Jerusalem.

Perhaps its both. We live on the physical side of the New Covenant but are in the spiritual realm of the New Covenant as well. OT Saints exist in the spiritual realm of the New Covenant(heaven). This is why Rev 22 says there are those outside the city who may enter through the gates. Those "dogs" are sinners outside the spiritual New Covenant.

I have come to believe Heaven to be more of an existence,than a place.

 

'Heaven is both and eternal life {existence} and a place. Jesus said, 'In My Father's house are man mansions {resting places} [John 14:2] and John again in his Book of Revelation speaks of a 'holy city, the New Jerusalem' that will come down out of Heaven. [Revelation 21:9-27] The city will have 12 foundations with the name of each apostle written on them. No Temple needed; Jesus will be there to be worshipped and adored for 1,000 years and later even forever throughout eternity.'

'The kings of the earth from various nations will bring their glory and honor into it.' [vs.24]

Grasshopper said, 'I have come to believe Heaven to be more of an existence,than a place.'

 

The great thing about the Bible is that it usually interprets itself.

John tells us what that New Jerusalem is:

9 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride , the wife of the Lamb.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

The New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. Is the bride of Christ a literal city? No, its a figurative picture of the bride.
Ephesians chapter 2 gives us the same picture:

Eph 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;
21 in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;
22 in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit .

That city was being built in the 1st century.

If you use that city as the city in the Millinium, then what about the Heavens and Earth passing away in verse 1?

Revelation 211 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth : for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

You have insisted in the past that those are literal Heavens and Earth. Do you believe the literal heaven and earth will be destroyed before the Millinial Reign? Then they will be destroyed again afterwards? You might want to re-think your time-line. The 1000 years appear before the New Heavens and Earth and before the New Jerusalem.

 

Not the true Church. Just as physical Israel ultimately was not the true Kingdom of God (especially when recting the MEssiah, and thenbeing cast off herself). So we are dealing with the true and the counterfeit.

Once again, I was dealing with the counterfeit. And yes, these are spiritual entities.

Still, the people Jesus spoke to never did (yet) "see" the saints in the city.

I came to realize that the city in a spatial sense, is not the whole earth, but the center of worship of God. So people still live outside, but of course the "dogs", etc. "shall not", and cannot enter, because they are not on that earth at all, but eternally separated.