How Does Your View of Election/Predestination Affect Your Practical Theology?

[37818]

4. I do know that election is BOTH personal and corporate, and known of God are all His works from the foundation of the world

Well the election is corporate before the foundation of mankind. ". . . us . . . ," ". . .we . . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4. In light of God's omniscience I do not see how it cannot also be personal.

 

[glad4mercy]

Well the election is corporate before the foundation of mankind. ". . . us . . . ," ". . .we . . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4. In light of God's omniscience I do not see how it cannot also be personal.

I think we agree and are on the same page in this.

 

[Particular]

I know God's word does not go forth uselessly. And I believe if everyone were already predestinated for heaven or hell, with no chance to change one's status, there'd be no use for Bibles, preaching, churches, or worship, period.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So, ALL have the chance to be saved, as the Scripture says.

We preach the message to all. Not all will receive the message and respond in faith and repentance. The reason a rebel does not respond is because s/he considers reconciliation to be foolishness. What does the self-esteemed ruler of their life want with someone who says s/he is a wicked sinner?
Only the one whom God chooses to make alive with Christ would ever see her/his sin and repent. We humans are ever the ones who want to rule out lives. Even Christians fight against the Supremacy of God. This is why God is ever disciplining His children. We need it when God chooses to make us His family member.

 

[37818]

. . . respond in faith and repentance.

Biblical repentance precedes faith. Mark 1:15; Hebrews 6:1; 2 Timothy 2:25; John 17:17; Romans 10:17.

 

[glad4mercy]

Biblical repentance precedes faith. Mark 1:15; Hebrews 6:1; 2 Timothy 2:25; John 17:17; Romans 10:17.

agree!

 

[Particular]

Biblical repentance precedes faith. Mark 1:15; Hebrews 6:1; 2 Timothy 2:25; John 17:17; Romans 10:17.

Well, John 17:17 and Romans 10:17 have nothing to do with repentance so toss those out.
Mark 1:15 and Hebrews 6:1,2 are specifically addressing those whom God has already saved.
2 Timothy 2:25 reveals that God must work first in the person's life, which then leads to repentance.
In none of your references do we see a person who is dead in their trespasses and sins repenting before God makes them alive with Christ.
When we observe Paul's conversion we see God calling and choosing Paul and then Paul is brought to repentance.
Life, given by God, comes first. Faith comes next. Repentance is the effect of the cause.
God does the work. We respond.
To claim we repent first is to say our work causes God to respond. That is simply false.

 

[glad4mercy]

Well, John 17:17 and Romans 10:17 have nothing to do with repentance so toss those out.
Mark 1:15 and Hebrews 6:1,2 are specifically addressing those whom God has already saved.
2 Timothy 2:25 reveals that God must work first in the person's life, which then leads to repentance.
In none of your references do we see a person who is dead in their trespasses and sins repenting before God makes them alive with Christ.
When we observe Paul's conversion we see God calling and choosing Paul and then Paul is brought to repentance.
Life, given by God, comes first. Faith comes next. Repentance is the effect of the cause.
God does the work. We respond.
To claim we repent first is to say our work causes God to respond. That is simply false.

not what I am saying at least. Repent sanche is wrought in the heart the same way faith is...by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Repentance begins with a godly contrition and sorrow for sin, (repentance) which compels is to flee to the Saviours waiting arms (faith). Acts 20:22 also puts repentance before faith

in my own conversion, the Spirit brought me to a place of repentance, then faith. Both were wrought by the Grace of God through the convicting AND convincing ministry of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Particular]

not what I am saying at least. Repent sanche is wrought in the heart the same way faith is...by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Repentance begins with a godly contrition and sorrow for sin, (repentance) which compels is to flee to the Saviours waiting arms (faith). Acts 20:22 also puts repentance before faith

in my own conversion, the Spirit brought me to a place of repentance, then faith. Both were wrought by the Grace of God through the convicting AND convincing ministry of the Holy Spirit.

How can you have the faith necessary to repent if you have no faith?
Rebels will not repent to the Supremacy of God, unless they have faith that God will forgive them. Otherwise, they will remain in rebellion and find repentance to be foolishness. For what reason or need would they repent when they view themselves as ruler of their life?

 

[Shoostie]

I know God's word does not go forth uselessly. And I believe if everyone were already predestinated for heaven or hell, with no chance to change one's status, there'd be no use for Bibles, preaching, churches, or worship, period.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So, ALL have the chance to be saved, as the Scripture says.

God tells us to go forth, which is reason enough. We can change lives and culture, which is reason enough. Even if we can't change someone's destination, we have enough reason to go forth.

How is it better if everyone has a "chance"? God left our eternity up to chance, not his sovereign will?

In 2 Peter 3:9, God is patient toward "you", his "believed" (2 Peter 3:1), the elect, not everyone.

 

[glad4mercy]

How can you have the faith necessary to repent if you have no faith?
Rebels will not repent to the Supremacy of God, unless they have faith that God will forgive them. Otherwise, they will remain in rebellion and find repentance to be foolishness. For what reason or need would they repent when they view themselves as ruler of their life?

repentance and faith BOTH are the result of the regenerating ministry of the Holy Spirit. They basically happen simultaneously anyways, because there is no true faith without repentance and there is no true repentance without faith

but you have to come to realize heartily your desperate condition and need of a Saviour before you can have saving faith. Otherwise, it is mere head knowledge

note... I distinguish intellectual belief from biblical faith. They are not synonomous

 

[Particular]

repentance and faith BOTH are the result of the regenerating ministry of the Holy Spirit. They basically happen simultaneously anyways, because there is no true faith without repentance and there is no true repentance without faith

but you have to come to realize heartily your desperate condition and need of a Saviour before you can have saving faith. Otherwise, it is mere head knowledge

note... I distinguish intellectual belief from biblical faith. They are not synonomous

God chooses, God makes alive. God gives faith. God causes repentance.
A dead man cannot repent.
Where we agree is that all the actions of God may happen simultaneously. It is for God to work as he wills.

 

[Yeshua1]

How can you have the faith necessary to repent if you have no faith?
Rebels will not repent to the Supremacy of God, unless they have faith that God will forgive them. Otherwise, they will remain in rebellion and find repentance to be foolishness. For what reason or need would they repent when they view themselves as ruler of their life?

I have yet to see when lost in their sin natures, and at war with God sinners will all of a sudden have a change of heart apart from God greanting them one first!

 

[37818]

Well, John 17:17 and Romans 10:17 have nothing to do with repentance so toss those out.

Ah, are you really dense? I would not think so. One can not believe, have faith in a truth previously not believed without first changing one's mind. ". . . if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; . . ." -- 2 Timothy 2:25, is how God gives one faith. Again, repentance prcedes faith, ". . . repent ye and believe . . . ." -- Mark 1:15.

 

[Particular]

Ah, are you really dense? I would not think so. One can not believe, have faith in a truth previously not believed without first changing one's mind. ". . . if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; . . ." -- 2 Timothy 2:25, is how God gives one faith. Again, repentance prcedes faith, ". . . repent ye and believe . . . ." -- Mark 1:15.

I explained this. You can't wrap your head around how God sovereignly chooses, elects and predestines before we are even born, let alone repent.
God does the work we cannot do. Repentance is an effect of what God has done. Repentance is not the cause that effects God's action as you are attempting to argue.

 

[Reformed]

Repentance does precede faith but repentance is also a granted by God (Acts 11:18).

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[Particular]

Repentance does precede faith but repentance is also a granted by God (Acts 11:18).

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We are trying to split an atom here.
God must quicken the soul. Of this I'm confident we agree.
God is the cause. The effect is a gifting of faith, a response of repentance, a passion to learn more about our Father who has so graciously adopted us. Etc.
What cannot happen is repentance before quickening. What cannot happen is faith before quickening. God must quicken the soul as the cause agent, which results in many effects.

 

[glad4mercy]

Repentance does precede faith but repentance is also a granted by God (Acts 11:18).

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amen. Agree 1000 percent

 

[glad4mercy]

God chooses, God makes alive. God gives faith. God causes repentance.
A dead man cannot repent.
Where we agree is that all the actions of God may happen simultaneously. It is for God to work as he wills.

Both true repentance and True faith are Impossible apart from the Powerful work of Grace.

 

[glad4mercy]

I explained this. You can't wrap your head around how God sovereignly chooses, elects and predestines before we are even born, let alone repent.
God does the work we cannot do. Repentance is an effect of what God has done. Repentance is not the cause that effects God's action as you are attempting to argue.

yes, repentance is effected by a powerful work of Grace upon a human heart by means of the Word of God and the Spirit of God

 

[Reformed]

We are trying to split an atom here.
God must quicken the soul. Of this I'm confident we agree.
God is the cause. The effect is a gifting of faith, a response of repentance, a passion to learn more about our Father who has so graciously adopted us. Etc.
What cannot happen is repentance before quickening. What cannot happen is faith before quickening. God must quicken the soul as the cause agent, which results in many effects.

Please review this post from an older thread: . . . in sanctification of the Spirit . . . .

"Quickening" as you call it occurs at the point of the inward call or effectual call. It is a work of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, the Ordo Salutis is not so much a chronological chain of events that must take place as it is a logical order.