How Far Are The Pro-Vaxers Willing To Go?

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Neither party would go that far (it is not in their best interest) but both would go down that road.

Still not representative of the reality we are in. The Dems have headed way down that road.

Another bizarre element in American politics is the rise of belief in neutral journalism by a large portion of the population.

Until FOX came along, the Dems had by far the loudest voice, which the Reps only barely battled.

Trump was able to successfully enter the fray mainly because of FOX and the Internet.

We've already seen how the Dem Progressive Left has been able to control much of the latter.

 

[JonC]

Still not representative of the reality we are in. The Dems have headed way down that road.

Another bizarre element in American politics is the rise of belief in neutral journalism by a large portion of the population.

Until FOX came along, the Dems had by far the loudest voice, which the Reps only barely battled.

Trump was able to successfully enter the fray mainly because of FOX and the Internet.

We've already seen how the Dem Progressive Left has been able to control much of the latter.

The media aspect is interesting. When I worked from home (about 3 years, until April of this year) I'd have c-span on when ventless pr the senate were in session. I liked Fox news, but noticed that Fox and CNN were both "fake news" in that they both put spins on what actually occurred and misrepresented what actually happened....just for opposite agendas. Fox News was perhaps a little more honest in comparison to liberal media outlets, but this is a comparison (Fox was still not unbiased or honest).

What we have is a two party system of corruption. And they are dependent on one another for power.

I guess we have no reason to be surprised. Scripture warns against these political powers (that they are worldly). Where the DNC wears its anti-Christ agenda on it's sleeve the GOP is more of a wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

[Stephen Green]

Not entirely accurate, Jon. I have family in Austria, and an anti-vax cousin cannot leave her home due to their full stop lockdown for the unvaccinated. Her friends and family bring her groceries. Delivery services won’t deliver to her. Doctors won’t see her. There was also a lockdown for the vaccinated the past few weeks but more like our USA lockdowns from early 2020. They are periodic but regular.

In Australia, I’ve lost touch with a friend, vaccinated, who is currently detained in a quarantine camp, Howard Springs I think — it has been beyond the average 14 days. Out there, when a certain area is deemed high risk, it is locked down and the police come and administer mandatory rapid tests. However, if you have a history of non-compliance, you don’t get a test: you either have to drive yourself to the quarantine facility, or be detained at the discretion of the officer, taken to facility in a quarantine vehicle and pay a $5,000 fine that supposedly covers the cost of the ride. Filming or otherwise documenting these encounters without a government commission to do so is illegal and can result in fines or incarceration. These are all “emergency powers” in AUS.

If my friend hasn’t been compliant at the camp, it’s possible she was arrested, in which case she may undergo forced testing before being transferred to a prison without trial for a period of 30-90 days.

I'd say waterboarding is probably a bit too far. At least if done for an extended amount of time.

On a serious note, as there are thus far no countries keeping people from buying groceries due to vaccine status it's hard to take the op seriously.

But as far as limits go, I would draw the line at denying others their constitutional rights.

 

[JonC]

Not entirely accurate, Jon. I have family in Austria, and an anti-vax cousin cannot leave her home due to their full stop lockdown for the unvaccinated. Her friends and family bring her groceries. Delivery services won’t deliver to her. Doctors won’t see her. There was also a lockdown for the vaccinated the past few weeks but more like our USA lockdowns from early 2020. They are periodic but regular.

In Australia, I’ve lost touch with a friend, vaccinated, who is currently detained in a quarantine camp, Howard Springs I think — it has been beyond the average 14 days. Out there, when a certain area is deemed high risk, it is locked down and the police come and administer mandatory rapid tests. However, if you have a history of non-compliance, you don’t get a test: you either have to drive yourself to the quarantine facility, or be detained at the discretion of the officer, taken to facility in a quarantine vehicle and pay a $5,000 fine that supposedly covers the cost of the ride. Filming or otherwise documenting these encounters without a government commission to do so is illegal and can result in fines or incarceration. These are all “emergency powers” in AUS.

If my friend hasn’t been compliant at the camp, it’s possible she was arrested, in which case she may undergo forced testing before being transferred to a prison without trial for a period of 30-90 days.

I was speaking specifically of the US.

I believe our government is overreaching when it exceeds the bonds placed upon it by the US Constitution (it has tossed off these bonds long ago).

I believe we should not comply with the government when compliance is disobedience to God, otherwise noncompliance itself is disobedience to God.

 

[Stephen Green]

Understood. The Kingdoms of the world are the Kingdom of our God and His Christ. The governments of our brothers and sisters in Austria and Australia are in open defiance of Christ. We should pray and act so that the individuals responsible should be removed from power and held accountable for crimes against humanity.

As for domestic USA, the Constitution has long since been violated, since most state governors have put us under de facto legislation that was not passed through Constitutional channels (Congress).

As a resident of MA, our state Constitution has been violated both on a state level and a town level at various times in the past year:

Article II:
It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.

I was speaking specifically of the US.

I believe our government is overreaching when it exceeds the bonds placed upon it by the US Constitution (it has tossed off these bonds long ago).

I believe we should not comply with the government when compliance is disobedience to God, otherwise noncompliance itself is disobedience to God.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

The media aspect is interesting. When I worked from home (about 3 years, until April of this year) I'd have c-span on when ventless pr the senate were in session. I liked Fox news, but noticed that Fox and CNN were both "fake news" in that they both put spins on what actually occurred and misrepresented what actually happened....just for opposite agendas. Fox News was perhaps a little more honest in comparison to liberal media outlets, but this is a comparison (Fox was still not unbiased or honest).

What we have is a two party system of corruption. And they are dependent on one another for power.

I guess we have no reason to be surprised. Scripture warns against these political powers (that they are worldly). Where the DNC wears its anti-Christ agenda on it's sleeve the GOP is more of a wolf in sheeps clothing.

My post certainly didn’t suggest FOX was unbiased. Rather it gave Republican and some of the more conservative viewpoints a rather loud voice, something that had been missing before. A bit of a game changer in politics.

However, the situation is much worse than your post suggests.

No one is right about everything, not even Christians. I’ve been around too long, seen and heard too much to trust anyone, myself included, to have everything right. Everything must be vetted, tested, proved out.

Scripture does indeed warn us about this. For example, 1 John 4:1:

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

The media aspect is interesting. When I worked from home (about 3 years, until April of this year) I'd have c-span on when ventless pr the senate were in session. I liked Fox news, but noticed that Fox and CNN were both "fake news" in that they both put spins on what actually occurred and misrepresented what actually happened....just for opposite agendas. Fox News was perhaps a little more honest in comparison to liberal media outlets, but this is a comparison (Fox was still not unbiased or honest).

What we have is a two party system of corruption. And they are dependent on one another for power.
…

Unfortunately, for a very long time the American people have been buying into the big lie that the country should be governed top down, that is, federally, not per COTUS but by those in federal office. A thread here was even started on how COTUS might be legally replaced, with a suggestion that those holding federal office might have such authority. Bizarre.

But as we’ve both already pointed out, the federal government has far more power than was originally allowed, and with a bureaucracy that bypasses much of the checks and balances elections were intended to help ensure. Much of that bureaucracy is run by the Dem Progressive Left. DC polls well over 90% Dem.

The Dems are certainly wolves of the worst sort. However, this in no way means they are doing everything openly. Far from it. They are far worse than they let on. Again, it is the known part their supporters embrace that should be shocking.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

… I liked Fox news, but noticed that Fox and CNN were both "fake news" in that they both put spins on what actually occurred and misrepresented what actually happened....just for opposite agendas. Fox News was perhaps a little more honest in comparison to liberal media outlets, but this is a comparison (Fox was still not unbiased or honest). …

I don’t know if you noticed, but several on this board did, when FOX called the election for Biden well ahead of polling. It was so bad that some of the worst Dem Progressive Left pundits were showing more restraint.

RINOs were all too obviously nefariously helping undermine Trump’s bid for a second term.

That FOX played such a key role didn’t set well with many who preferred having a populist president.

 

[JonC]

Understood. The Kingdoms of the world are the Kingdom of our God and His Christ. The governments of our brothers and sisters in Austria and Australia are in open defiance of Christ. We should pray and act so that the individuals responsible should be removed from power and held accountable for crimes against humanity.

As for domestic USA, the Constitution has long since been violated, since most state governors have put us under de facto legislation that was not passed through Constitutional channels (Congress).

As a resident of MA, our state Constitution has been violated both on a state level and a town level at various times in the past year:

Article II:
It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.

All secular governments are by definition anti-Christ.

I am not familiar with the persecution of Christians in Australia. Are they issuing laws that to obey, for a Christian, is to disobey God?

 

[JonC]

My post certainly didn’t suggest FOX was unbiased. Rather it gave Republican and some of the more conservative viewpoints a rather loud voice, something that had been missing before. A bit of a game changer in politics.

However, the situation is much worse than your post suggests.

No one is right about everything, not even Christians. I’ve been around too long, seen and heard too much to trust anyone, myself included, to have everything right. Everything must be vetted, tested, proved out.

Scripture does indeed warn us about this. For example, 1 John 4:1:

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

I know you were not suggesting FOX was unbiased. Sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting otherwise. I'm sure both of us agree the GOP and DNC are against God.

I agree with you that tge DNC is more overt in their stance. My point is they are no more dangerous. Where the DNC is a threat to the nation the GOP is and has been a threat to the Church.

We would never confuse the DNC platform as being pro-Christianity. They are far from wolves in sheep's clothing. They were wolves without disguise. However the GOP masquerades as the sheep deceiving believers into exchanging the gospel of Christ for their social agenda.

 

[JonC]

Unfortunately, for a very long time the American people have been buying into the big lie that the country should be governed top down, that is, federally, not per COTUS but by those in federal office. A thread here was even started on how COTUS might be legally replaced, with a suggestion that those holding federal office might have such authority. Bizarre.

But as we’ve both already pointed out, the federal government has far more power than was originally allowed, and with a bureaucracy that bypasses much of the checks and balances elections were intended to help ensure. Much of that bureaucracy is run by the Dem Progressive Left. DC polls well over 90% Dem.

The Dems are certainly wolves of the worst sort. However, this in no way means they are doing everything openly. Far from it. They are far worse than they let on. Again, it is the known part their supporters embrace that should be shocking.

One issue is the states willingly gave up their rights for federal dollars. Now they are too dependent on the cash.

 

[JonC]

I don’t know if you noticed, but several on this board did, when FOX called the election for Biden well ahead of polling. It was so bad that some of the worst Dem Progressive Left pundits were showing more restraint.

RINOs were all too obviously nefariously helping undermine Trump’s bid for a second term.

That FOX played such a key role didn’t set well with many who preferred having a populist president.

It doesn't matter. Biden was going to win anyway.....votes or no votes.

 

[Two Wings]

One issue is the states willingly gave up their rights for federal dollars. Now they are too dependent on the cash.

Take a view of Biden’s comments during the televised “governors’ meeting”

~”states issue, but we are hear to help” (the Fed govt.) ...

herein is the problem ... it’s the States collectively higher than the Fed ... but ... we’ve surrendered that for the reason you outline right now ... and the Fed generates NOTHING. It only takes.

In the last couple of decades, it’s been taking from workers who aren’t even born yet.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I know you were not suggesting FOX was unbiased. Sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting otherwise. I'm sure both of us agree the GOP and DNC are against God.

I agree with you that tge DNC is more overt in their stance. My point is they are no more dangerous. Where the DNC is a threat to the nation the GOP is and has been a threat to the Church.

We would never confuse the DNC platform as being pro-Christianity. They are far from wolves in sheep's clothing. They were wolves without disguise. However the GOP masquerades as the sheep deceiving believers into exchanging the gospel of Christ for their social agenda.

Yes, and we agree on a lot of this. I must say, however, that the DNC rather than the GOP masquerades as sheep with a social gospel—equity, social justice, repercussions, illegals, BLM, antifa, defund the police, etc.

Perhaps we would not fall for it, but we can see, even on this board, how badly they’ve deceived some believers. I’ve also seen it in churches.

Every criticism that can be sort of aimed at the Reps can be multiplied a millionfold against the Dems. And yet, as blatantly evil as the Dems are, some Christians actually see them as good.

I wouldn’t want a Christian political party and the GOP isn’t one. I’m not a Rep, and wouldn’t put my faith in theirs or any other party. But they seem much more attuned to allowing Christians to do good unhindered. The Dem Progressive Left wants to shut Christians down—permanently.

 

[JonC]

Yes, and we agree on a lot of this. I must say, however, that the DNC rather than the GOP masquerades as sheep with a social gospel—equity, social justice, repercussions, illegals, BLM, antifa, defund the police, etc.

Perhaps we would not fall for it, but we can see, even on this board, how badly they’ve deceived some believers. I’ve also seen it in churches.

Every criticism that can be sort of aimed at the Reps can be multiplied a millionfold against the Dems. And yet, as blatantly evil as the Dems are, some Christians actually see them as good.

I wouldn’t want a Christian political party and the GOP isn’t one. I’m not a Rep, and wouldn’t put my faith in theirs or any other party. But they seem much more attuned to allowing Christians to do good unhindered. The Dem Progressive Left wants to shut Christians down—permanently.

Both parties have a "social gospel". The difference is how it is presented snd accomplished.

With a "social gospel" and the DNC I do not see this as a masquerade. The DNC straight out tells you their platform.

So I do see the GOP as the greater danger (again, not to the nation but to Christians). The reason is the party is wearing sheep's clothing.

The GOP looks Christian minus Christ while the DNC is straight out hostile to Christianity. I think this is why God warns not against Rome but against those who have an appearance of godliness.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Both parties have a "social gospel". The difference is how it is presented snd accomplished.

With a "social gospel" and the DNC I do not see this as a masquerade. The DNC straight out tells you their platform.

So I do see the GOP as the greater danger (again, not to the nation but to Christians). The reason is the party is wearing sheep's clothing.

The GOP looks Christian minus Christ while the DNC is straight out hostile to Christianity. I think this is why God warns not against Rome but against those who have an appearance of godliness.

OK, maybe that's the difference between us then. I never thought the GOP looked Christian. But perhaps you meant because they support some basic biblical principles of right and wrong for society?

However, I have seen many, many Christians under the bizarre impression that the DNC is Christianity in action. They are nothing of the sort. Their programs are nothing of the sort. Yet they are successfully deceiving many.

Perhaps the difference then is that we’ve perceived more Christians falling for a certain deception.

It seems to me that the dangerous deception of the GOP has not really been identified yet. That seems to need some real fleshing out.

 

[JonC]

OK, maybe that's the difference between us then. I never thought the GOP looked Christian. But perhaps you meant because they support some basic biblical principles of right and wrong for society?

However, I have seen many, many Christians under the bizarre impression that the DNC is Christianity in action. They are nothing of the sort. Their programs are nothing of the sort. Yet they are successfully deceiving many.

Perhaps the difference then is that we’ve perceived more Christians falling for a certain deception.

It seems to me that the dangerous deception of the GOP has not really been identified yet. That seems to need some real fleshing out.

I agree the GOP does not look Christian, but gor some reason it has successfully marketed itself as a pro-Christian party. How many times have we seen Trump praised for mentioning Jesus, only to be ignored for his actions and language?

I don't mean this as anti-Trump (I actually like Trump) but to point out how quickly Chrustians fall. Trump (and the GOP) panders to Christianity to gain power. This is a strength in terms of political strategy.

Perhaps you are right that more Christians are falling for tge deception from both parties. Maybe it's just more evident as the gap between these parties increase. I don't know. I only know it is sad.

 

[percho]

Yes, and we agree on a lot of this. I must say, however, that the DNC rather than the GOP masquerades as sheep with a social gospel—equity, social justice, repercussions, illegals, BLM, antifa, defund the police, etc.

Perhaps we would not fall for it, but we can see, even on this board, how badly they’ve deceived some believers. I’ve also seen it in churches.

Every criticism that can be sort of aimed at the Reps can be multiplied a millionfold against the Dems. And yet, as blatantly evil as the Dems are, some Christians actually see them as good.

I wouldn’t want a Christian political party and the GOP isn’t one. I’m not a Rep, and wouldn’t put my faith in theirs or any other party. But they seem much more attuned to allowing Christians to do good unhindered. The Dem Progressive Left wants to shut Christians down—permanently.

The only Christian political party IMHO, And it hath come to pass, Every one who calleth in the name of Jehovah is delivered, For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there is an escape, As Jehovah hath said, And among the remnants whom Jehovah is calling! Joel 2:32
Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name, After these things I will turn back, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, (In Mt Zion, Jerusalem) that is fallen down, and its ruins I will build again, and will set it upright -- that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called, saith the Lord, who is doing all these things. Acts 15:14,16,17

And that Christian political party will be made up only of those, who have been resurrected and or changed, from corruptible to incorruptible.

for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

Will that be the beginning hour, of the Day of the Lord? 2 Peter 3:8 And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;

When will the rest of the dead, live?

How long is Christ and those taken out of the nations as a people for his name going to rule (A political party?) on the earth?


I wonder if there will be, a CDC or a FDA.


Edit to add. BTW this is good news, the gospel, in a News forum.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

The only Christian political party IMHO, And it hath come to pass, Every one who calleth in the name of Jehovah is delivered, For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there is an escape, As Jehovah hath said, And among the remnants whom Jehovah is calling! Joel 2:32
Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name, After these things I will turn back, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, (In Mt Zion, Jerusalem) that is fallen down, and its ruins I will build again, and will set it upright -- that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called, saith the Lord, who is doing all these things. Acts 15:14,16,17

And that Christian political party will be made up only of those, who have been resurrected and or changed, from corruptible to incorruptible.

for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

Will that be the beginning hour, of the Day of the Lord? 2 Peter 3:8 And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;

When will the rest of the dead, live?

How long is Christ and those taken out of the nations as a people for his name going to rule (A political party?) on the earth?


I wonder if there will be, a CDC or a FDA.


Edit to add. BTW this is good news, the gospel, in a News forum.

As I said, I don’t want a secular “Christian” political party. But I do want to see Christians deeply influence secular institutions in positive ways, including governments and political parties, even from within. I’m not against Christian military chaplains.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I agree the GOP does not look Christian, but gor some reason it has successfully marketed itself as a pro-Christian party. How many times have we seen Trump praised for mentioning Jesus, only to be ignored for his actions and language?

I don't mean this as anti-Trump (I actually like Trump) but to point out how quickly Chrustians fall. Trump (and the GOP) panders to Christianity to gain power. This is a strength in terms of political strategy.

Perhaps you are right that more Christians are falling for tge deception from both parties. Maybe it's just more evident as the gap between these parties increase. I don't know. I only know it is sad.

We may see pro-Christian very differently. Pro-Christian to me is along the lines of, “I have many people in this city,” (Acts 18:10e).

Whether someone in a party is a Christian, or a model Christian, is not the point. In fact, IMO, those who pastor churches shouldn’t lead political parties. Influence, yes. But lead? No.

I do not want a political party taking on the task of spreading the Gospel.

However, maintaining law and order so that Christians are free to speak and act according to Christ is a good thing. The GOP seems to be currently operating along these lines.

OTOH, the Dem Progressive Left is openly anti-God, anti-Christ. They are working to shut down Christians in every sphere of society.

My point is that, if the GOP is deceiving Christians into making them think theirs is a Christian party, I'd like to know in what way that is taking place. Expose them here and now for the sake of all.