How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;

[1689Dave]

When I asked the Lord to save me. My heart was full of sin and hatred. I hated everything about Christians. It seemed to me I was never really welcomed around any of them. I just could not relate to them it seemed they all thought they were better than everyone else even each other. When I asked Christ to save me everything changed. It was like a huge load had been lifted off me. My attitude changed from hatefulness to peacefulness. I actually began to love others instead of being hateful. The Bible became something I love very much where before I hated it because I was made to study it against my own will. In other words I could not get enough of it and still I can't seem to get enough. Before I was saved I didn't really love anything or anybody this was the biggest change to happen to me in my life.My will changed too. I was willing to help people and to appreciate hearing a good sermon I became willing to serve God.
MB

I'm just the opposite. I wasn't looking for Christ and couldn't care less about him at the time. But from out of the blue I experienced the fruit of the Spirit in my heart and believed in him because of that experience.

 

[InTheLight]

How do you know you're saved?

We just had a thread about this. You posted in it.

How do you know you are saved?


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Revmitchell]

Doesn't everyone know Arminians will oppose Calvinism visa versa in the thread devoted to that? It's judging motives that gets us into trouble with God.

I have no.idea what arminians do. When someone says something as bad as you have there is no trust there.

 

[InTheLight]

It's judging motives that gets us into trouble with God.

Then by your definition, you are in trouble with God because the first four paragraphs of the OP is judging the motives of others.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[1689Dave]

I have no.idea what arminians do. When someone says something as bad as you have there is no trust there.

Can you prove me wrong using scripture? If not, how can it be bad?

 

[church mouse guy]

 

[MB]

Can you prove me wrong using scripture? If not, how can it be bad?

Sorry \Dave you have such a testimony. No where in scripture does anyone ever say we get saved just out of the blue. That's just plain imaginary. With no gospel it doesn't work that way. The Bible clearly says ;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house

It's really simple No faith, No grace, No Salvation.
MB

 

[atpollard]

The extent of false conditions and assumptions about other people's beliefs that you make up in your head is breathtaking.

Surprisingly, I agree. Calvinists (monergistic) generally do a poor job of presenting Arminian (free will) beliefs. Arminians (free will) generally do an equally poor job of presenting Calvinist (monergistic) beliefs. Yet somehow, both sides love to tell the other side what they believe and why it is wrong.

To address the concepts presented in the OP:
I think most Free Will (General Baptists) probably hold a view closer to Wesleyan “general grace” that grants all without exception the ability to choose or reject the gospel (like the parable of the seeds) and God grants “saving grace” to those that choose to believe (as Christ commanded).

 

[Revmitchell]

Can you prove me wrong using scripture? If not, how can it be bad?

It can be as bad as it is. In fact it is down right trollish.

Can you prove me wrong using scripture? If not, how can it be bad?

You did not use scripture in your op to make your point. You quoted Luther who was largely talking about the Catholic Church. So:

1. You did not use scripture
2. The context of Luther's quote was directed at the Catholic Church
3. Your demand that I use scripture is in fact hypocritical based on # 1
4. Your thread title is bombastic and arrogant
5. You have not addressed my concerns about the way you have already posted here.

So why do you ignore my concerns about your posting? Can you not answer them? Do you believe your thread here follows scripture when it says:

"to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people"

Do you believe that such posts as yours avoids quarreling? Not with titles like the one found in this thread. Such a title is in fact the very example of quarreling.

Do you believe that your op is gentle? Just based on your thread title alone it fails that standard.

Do you believe your op shows perfect courtesy to all? Let me help you out....it does not.

If you have some sort of disability that prevents you from wording your posts any better then maybe you should get some help.

 

[robycop3]

When confronted with arminian vs calvinist long ago, I turned to SCRIPTURE for answers. I saw that God directly called some out, such as Moses & Jeremiah. Others, such as Nebuchadnezzar, had to see God's power before believing. And later, many heard Jesus preach, chose to believe Him, & were saved And 2 Peter 9 made it clear that salvation is open to all living people.

 

[Dave G]

No where in scripture does anyone ever say we get saved just out of the blue.

" But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." ( Romans 10:20 )?

It's really simple No faith, No grace, No Salvation.

" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." ( Romans 10:16-18 ).

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

 

[Particular]

It can be as bad as it is. In fact it is down right trollish.


You did not use scripture in your op to make your point. You quoted Luther who was largely talking about the Catholic Church. So:

1. You did not use scripture
2. The context of Luther's quote was directed at the Catholic Church
3. Your demand that I use scripture is in fact hypocritical based on # 1
4. Your thread title is bombastic and arrogant
5. You have not addressed my concerns about the way you have already posted here.

So why do you ignore my concerns about your posting? Can you not answer them? Do you believe your thread here follows scripture when it says:

"to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people"

Do you believe that such posts as yours avoids quarreling? Not with titles like the one found in this thread. Such a title is in fact the very example of quarreling.

Do you believe that your op is gentle? Just based on your thread title alone it fails that standard.

Do you believe your op shows perfect courtesy to all? Let me help you out....it does not.

If you have some sort of disability that prevents you from wording your posts any better then maybe you should get some help.

Here is the assertion of the OP.
How does your declaration refute his assertion? Your initial post did not address the assertion. Instead, it ridiculed the OP.
Please, address the topic and stop using a non-sequitur.

Free will means all people have partial salvation. And all they must do is provide what’s needed to complete it. So different groups fill in the blanks with different levels of obedience to complete the task. They are half saved having free will. And fully saved by choosing to obey.

But it always results in people trusting in themselves for salvation. God only opening heaven’s doors to those who complete the task.

But this destroys faith in Christ as savior. Free will is a walk by sight trust in yourself for salvation based on rules you fulfill. So trust is always in self who fulfills them.

But without free will, people have to look for a power beyond themselves to save. Only when they come to the end of themselves with nothing more they can do, will Christ become their only focus of faith.

 

[Dave G]

And 2 Peter 9 made it clear that salvation is open to all living people.

"This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:" ( 2 Peter 3:1-2 ).


" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. " ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 )

Who are the "any" and "all" here, @robycop3 ?

 

[Reformed]

What about Luther? Was he wrong to take on the Catholics?

Apples and Zucchinis. Luther's fight was ecclesiastical. By the time he nailed his 95 theses to the church door, he had already written numerous works on the excesses of Rome. Additionally, life and death were literally in the balance. I hope you do not consider the OP to be in the same category as Martin Luther.

There is no more ardent Calvinist on this board than me. I will gladly take the criticism that goes with it. What I no longer do is start threads that serve no other purpose except to elicit a visceral response. I also avoid threads that are started for that purpose. Now, if a thread is started to discuss the differences between free will and divine sovereignty, I may very well participate in that thread.

Please do not think I am telling you what to post. Post what you feel like posting. The moderators will jump in if they feel it crosses the line. But I am not a "homer". I have no problem taking on those who are on my side of the issue when I believe they are wrong.

 

[Reformed]

I believe it is within reasonable bounds to start a thread when we believe the otherrside may struggle to answer a point in scripture. Its the characterizations of each other that are a problem. Take for example the title of this thread. Even if one truly believes that do they not know how it will be received? Of course they do. Yet they do it anyway. What do they get out of it? What is the pay off for them? I cannot help but believe their intent is something other than a peaceful discussion.

I have started to feel that way about all threads that either try to hide their agenda or are blatantly trying to pick a fight. I just take the by-pass road on those sort of threads.

 

[rockytopva]

Freewill caused the falling away from Christ...

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. - Hebrews 6:6

 

[Scott Downey]

Freewill caused the falling away from Christ...

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. - Hebrews 6:6

But why do they lack faith and patience, those that fall away?
Because they have no ROOT in them, read the parable of the sower.
There was only one where the seed fell that bore the good fruit, and that was the one with the good soil, which points to the good foundation that God had prepared in them.

Notice v17, that by two things, God swearing by an oath and it is impossible for God to lie, we have strong consolation to lay hold of the hope given to us by God. And the oath God swore is the same for us as for Abraham,

14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you."

But unless you have the new heart, that new spirit inside given to you by God, being born of God, you will all fall away as you can not believe what God has said.


9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and [d]labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

God’s Infallible Purpose in Christ
13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute.

17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[S0l0m0n]

But it always results in people trusting in themselves for salvation. God only opening heaven’s doors to those who complete the task.

I think most Free Will (General Baptists) probably hold a view closer to Wesleyan “general grace”

Wesley, Finney, Revivalism, Holiness and all the rest are just pieces of the carnal puzzle.

As for "how free will destroys faith in Christ":

It may actually be a good thing as it separates the wheat from the chaff. It is God's judgment.
[Matthew 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.]

It is dangerous only to believers in that they will be 'tossed to and fro'.
[Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;]

Yet, it may just be God's correction, so that a believer will be moved towards God.
[Hebrews 12:6-7 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?]

And perhaps if they continue on denying the truth about God, then their end in this life is cut short.
[Ecclesiastes 7:17 Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?]

To unbelievers, they never belonged there in the first place, as they were never called and only the sin within them desired something about it.
[Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.]

Basically, 'free-will' can't destroy real faith; as 'free-will' in terms of salvation is an illusion based on man-made concepts. A phantom can't come close to attacking anything real and of substance.

 

[1689Dave]

It can be as bad as it is. In fact it is down right trollish.


You did not use scripture in your op to make your point. You quoted Luther who was largely talking about the Catholic Church. So:

1. You did not use scripture
2. The context of Luther's quote was directed at the Catholic Church
3. Your demand that I use scripture is in fact hypocritical based on # 1
4. Your thread title is bombastic and arrogant
5. You have not addressed my concerns about the way you have already posted here.

So why do you ignore my concerns about your posting? Can you not answer them? Do you believe your thread here follows scripture when it says:

"to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people"

Do you believe that such posts as yours avoids quarreling? Not with titles like the one found in this thread. Such a title is in fact the very example of quarreling.

Do you believe that your op is gentle? Just based on your thread title alone it fails that standard.

Do you believe your op shows perfect courtesy to all? Let me help you out....it does not.

If you have some sort of disability that prevents you from wording your posts any better then maybe you should get some help.

Do you believe Luther's quote in the post?

 

[1689Dave]

Sorry \Dave you have such a testimony. No where in scripture does anyone ever say we get saved just out of the blue. That's just plain imaginary. With no gospel it doesn't work that way. The Bible clearly says ;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house

It's really simple No faith, No grace, No Salvation.
MB

How about Paul?