How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[canadyjd]

I get that but I'm not going to go down the road to talk about that right now. The fact is God was grieved these people were not believing. Why would he be grieved if the believing capacity was totally and absolutely his place to impart?

So the OP puts it out as one must believe before they will believe in other words God must put the believing in first. If that be the case why was God grieved in Numb 14:11?

This relationship between God and His creation, since the creation, was to accomplish His stated intention of having a people to call His own; that they would love Him and trust Him completely.

This is what I believe scripture teaches. (1)God allowed sin and death to come into the world so those He had chosen for salvation would know and understand that He loved them so much He would take on humanity and die in the flesh, just as they do. They will be His people and He is their God.
(2)God gave a general revelation of Himself in the creation that should have brought all mankind to salvation if they had not loved sin more than God. All of mankind stands condemned because they rejected God and chose sin. This, if course, grieved God but did not surprise Him.
(3)Since all of mankind stood condemned for rejecting God, He gave a special revelation of Himself to certain people throughout history to bring about His stated goal of having a people to call His own.
(4)That special revelation was completed in the person of Jesus Christ, His life and work, the founding of the church and giving the gospel to the Apostles.
(5)God's chosen method to bring His people to salvation is the preaching of the gospel. The gospel serves 2 purposes. It brings His people to salvation and it condemns those who are not His people because they reject it.
(5)Since all of mankind are enslaved by sin and simply will not come to repentence without His help, God Holy Spirit intercedes in the lives of His chosen. He convicts them of sin, convicts them of the truth of the gospel, draws them to Jesus and regenerates their natures and even gives them faith so that they are able to believe and come to Jesus for salvation.

This is why salvation is all about the unmerited favor (grace) of God.

 

[Dave G]

It is the gospel that has the power to save. (Romans 1:16)

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." ( Romans 1:16 )

I believe, and to me it is the power of God.
But it's the power of God unto ( "up to" or "to" ) salvation...
The Gospel doesn't save, God does, through Jesus Christ ( John 17:2 ).
It is a message, through His words, about His salvation.
He then uses the preaching of the Gospel to show us, as His children, that power to save. ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )

Nothing about this post is true

Sure it is.

Faith comes by hearing the gospel

As I see it, faith comes by "hearing" the Gospel ( Matthew 11:15, Matthew 13:9 ).
Here I see Jesus being very specific about telling the reader that there are two types of people..those that have ears to "hear", and those that do not.

"Hearing" is spiritual, not carnal and not physical.

" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." ( John 6:63 )

That scripture doesn't say that.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (ESV)

Sad that you would misuse scripture in such an extreme way.

Let's see that again:

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith," ( Galatians 5:22 )


The Greek says, "pistis", which is "belief" or faithfulness.
It looks to me as if genuine faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) and it is a fruit of the Spirit.


I think Dave's on to something.

Faithfulness and saving faith are two completely different things.

Faith doesn't save, from where I'm sitting...
God does, and He gives us the gifts that accompany it.
True faith comes from Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and is given to His sheep ( Jude 1:3 ).
It was THE faith ( there's only one faith ( Ephesians 4:5-6 ) mentioned in the Bible, that I see ) that was delivered to a specific group of recipients...the saints.


May God be pleased to show you this, good sir.

 

[Dave G]

But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation.

But doesn't Scripture specifically state that it is not by works ( Ephesians 2:9 ) and that it is not by works of righteousness ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
So, if anyone preaches the "offer" of salvation, and the Gospel is not an "offer", but is instead a promise and a declaration, then aren't they technically preaching another gospel?

I'm just trying to get all this straight.

But you cannot hear unless you are born again.

Well, I would say that one cannot "hear" unless they have ears to hear.

" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," ( Ephesians 1:13 )

So, it's not hearing ( which leaves out deaf people by default ), but is instead, "hearing", which anyone who "hears" ( even if they see the words on a page and God uses His words to bring them to Him in faith and repentance ) is saved.

Do they need to be born again at that point?
Or does it occur after "hearing"?

At any rate, the Lord is Marvelous.

 

[37818]

The way the gospel works. In the gospels, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Preaching means to announce. So when people hear the gospel followed by whoever believes has eternal life, those who believe know God saved them. And when told to repent and undergo baptism, it confirms their faith as they follow through.

But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

Does God save people this way? Yes because salvation is by grace. And they like the first group believed when they heard about salvation through Christ. Had they not believed, they would not have chosen to believe. So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.

No. Your argument is doing the very thing you claim. And the real error of others are wrong invitations. Doing something (baptism, confession, prayer, giving ones life, surrender, etc) as opposed to believing the gift of the gospel of grace.

". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.. . ." -- Romans 2:1 (Yes, this applies to me, when I do this)

". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: . . . " -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

And yes, the term "free will" is not found in holy scripture. But at issue is man's self will as opposed to God's will.

". . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. . . . " -- Matthew 7:21.

". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.

 

[37818]

The Gospel doesn't save, God does,

". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ." -- Romans 1:16. For clarification of that truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul says:

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21) (KJV 1900)

Then he says:

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)

Can you find anything in the flesh that would want to part with the sins it loves and cherishes more than God?

When works and repentance are properly defined then it is much more clearer to see. Most define works like the Pharisees - purely external words and actions. However, Christ defined works first and foremost as internal actions of the heart or the internal deliberating actions of the heart while external words and bodily actions were but the visible consequences. However, we are not saved by works - internal deliberating actions of heart and mind (will power) but by God's will power (Jn. 1:13; Jm. 1:17). EVEN THE BORN AGAIN MAN'S WILL POWER IS NOT ABLE TO DELIVER HIM FROM THE POWER OF INDWELLING SIN - Rom. 7:18 - and if that is true with the born again man even more so of the unregenerate man.
Repentance is not penance but an INTERNAL CHANGE of heart/mind. Change of mind from the state of unbelief to the state of belief. Change of heart from the love of darkness to the love of light. Change of will from the state of resistance to a state of submission. The power that makes this change is God empowering the gospel so that it comes not in word only but in "power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) as a creative word (2 Cor. 4:6).

Saving faith is not a product of the human will (Jn. 6:44) but the creative power of Jesus Christ as the word of command (Rom. 10:17 Rhema; James 1:17) rather the result of the command of the human instrument (Rom. 10:18 Rhema) even though Christ's command is in connection with the human instruments preaching (2 Cor. 4:5-7) but the power is not found in the minister or his preaching (2 Cor. 4:7; Rom. 10:18). So, it is Christ who is the "author and finisher" of saving faith (Heb.12:2; Philip. 1:29; Jn.6:29; etc.) and not human in origin. All fallen human beings enter this world in a state of unbelief (Jn. 3:17-18) and "condemned already" in a spiritual defiant state due to the fall. Justice demands nothing but penalization and the human will is bent on resistance to God and love for sin (Jn.3:19-20). Only God's amazing grace can be credited entirely for the salvation of any sinner as God's justice demands nothing but condemnation.

All gospel invitations in scripture are specified - whosoever is willing, rather than whosoever is not willing, whosoever is burdened with sin rather than sin lovers, whosoever is spiritually hungry and thirst, rather than spiritually satisfied with status quo, etc. Biblical invitations are solely based upon an internal CHANGE that has already occurred toward sin.

The command to repent is based upon accountability for their own sinful condition rather than based upon inherent ability to repent. God commands all men to "be perfect EVEN AS God is perfect" but that does not mean man has inherent ability to be perfect EVEN AS God is perfect. God command all men to be holy even as God is holy but that does not mean man has inherent ability to be holy like God. However, he is accountable due to being rightly condemned for his sinful condition when God "made man upright."

 

[The Biblicist]

". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ." -- Romans 1:16. For clarification of that truth.

Subjective gentive - power produced by God

 

[kyredneck]

The fact is God was grieved these people were not believing.

These people?:

And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? Num 14:11

These people were His people, the very people that even after all the wickedness they had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

AND, throughout all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always even though He granted them no repentance to enter into His Rest. They wandered in the Wilderness for the rest of their lives when they could have spent it in the Land of Milk & Honey had they only believed that it was their's for the taking.

Consider this:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3

Redeemed, born from above children of God are capable of doing everything they're told not to do in The Book. And that includes unbelief.

 

[1689Dave]

But doesn't Scripture specifically state that it is not by works ( Ephesians 2:9 ) and that it is not by works of righteousness ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
So, if anyone preaches the "offer" of salvation, and the Gospel is not an "offer", but is instead a promise and a declaration, then aren't they technically preaching another gospel?

I'm just trying to get all this straight.




Well, I would say that one cannot "hear" unless they have ears to hear.

" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," ( Ephesians 1:13 )

So, it's not hearing ( which leaves out deaf people by default ), but is instead, "hearing", which anyone who "hears" ( even if they see the words on a page and God uses His words to bring them to Him in faith and repentance ) is saved.

Do they need to be born again at that point?
Or does it occur after "hearing"?

At any rate, the Lord is Marvelous.

The Reformed have trouble with my take on the "free offer". I think this stems from Calvin's universal atonement that doesn't actually save anyone. (Later corrected into Limited Atonement by the Synod of Dordt). But in scripture they preached (announced) the gospel. And those who believed would rejoice and turn from their old ways. An "offer" places the burden of law on people making them the savior based on obedience. Calvin of course said the Holy Spirit muscles us into acting on the offer.

 

[Revmitchell]

But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation.

Not true and you have made a claim with no evidence.

So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

Uh no. Their belief in the finished work of Christ is primary.

 

[1689Dave]

Not true and you have made a claim with no evidence.



Uh no. Their belief in the finished work of Christ is primary.

Law requires meeting conditions to comply.

 

[robycop3]

Sportzz fanxx, if everyone was already predestinated, no matter what, there'd be no use to preach, spread the Gospel, attend church, have bibles, or even worship at all. Now, while God has predestinated some for special service to himself, He's never predestinated anyone to hell automatically, no matter what. Remember, Jesus even gave Judas the chance to repent !

Now, what is BIBLICAL faith ?

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

And how does one acquire SAVING faith ?

Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

And does GOD make the acquiring of saving faith available to all ?

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

We see people making bad choices thruout many Scriptural narratives. Scripture makes it evident that God does not want robots, incapable of the slightest disobedience. He wants people to love Him WILLINGLY, making their own choice to love and obey Him. Shoot, men can make robots, so how much more could GOD have done if He had so chosen ?

The "everyone is predestinated" myth is man-made and false, proven false by SCRIPTURE.

 

[Revmitchell]

Law requires meeting conditions to comply.

What law? Who is relying on any law?

 

[kyredneck]

works first and foremost as internal actions of the heart or the internal deliberating actions of the heart

Zactly.

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2
​

12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Heb 4

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh
4 (for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds),
5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ; 2 Cor 10

 

[1689Dave]

What law? Who is relying on any law?

Law stipulates terms of fulfillment, or conditions to be met. Grace has no conditions. So an announcement differs from an offer in this regard. Example; If your name is such and such, you also belong to this wealthy family. An offer is different, it might say; if you agree to the terms of this contract, you are entitled to the same perks and privileges as natural born members of this family.

 

[Revmitchell]

Law stipulates terms of fulfillment, or conditions to be met. Grace has no conditions. So an announcement differs from an offer in this regard. Example; If your name is such and such, you also belong to this wealthy family. An offer is different, it might say; if you agree to the terms of this contract, you are entitled to the same perks and privileges as natural born members of this family.

You are misusing the word "law" to create a doctrine not found in scripture. "Works" in scripture are always a reference to OT laws. You cannot just apply the word "law" any old way you want to. At least not with regards to scripture and salvation.

Salvation is a gift. Gifts must by necessity be received. Receiving a gift is not a work or law and no amount of mental gymnastics or scripture twisting will change that.

 

[1689Dave]

You are misusing the word "law" to create a doctrine not found in scripture. "Works" in scripture are always a reference to OT laws. You cannot just apply the word "law" any old way you want to. At least not with regards to scripture and salvation.

Salvation is a gift. Gifts must by necessity be received. Receiving a gift is not a work or law and no amount of mental gymnastics or scripture twisting will change that.

Isn't "choosing to believe" an attempt to keep the first commandment?

 

[Revmitchell]

Isn't "choosing to believe" an attempt to keep the first commandment?

How inane.

 

[1689Dave]

How inane.

Doesn't keeping the first commandments require belief before any would try to keep it?

 

[37818]

Now, what is BIBLICAL faith ?

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith being the substance of our hope (Titus 1:2).

And how does one acquire SAVING faith ?

Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Paul at this point is not speaking of the saving faith, but of God and His truth found in natural revelation being the basis of any faith (Romans 10:18; Psalms 19:1-4).