Don't unsaved people try to keep the ten commandments?
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Don't unsaved people try to keep the ten commandments?
37818
Well-Known Member
Yet the power of God in His gospel of grace is an objective truth.
Rockson
Active Member
So how do you deal with Paul when he says, "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." 2 Cor 5:20
Isn't that Paul telling them that yes THEY have something to do? If Calvinism were correct wouldn't it rather read, "God is going to reconcile you to him whether you like it or not so don't worry about it? In fact Paul was begging them, imploring them on Christs behalf no less, Look people....You do this thing! And if it were all automatic then why did Paul put it in terms of the most strongest urging.....as in begging, or pleading with them to do such?
37818
Well-Known Member
". . .I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. . . ." -- Galatians 2:21.
37818
Well-Known Member
Believing truth. No one merits any truth by believing what needs to be believed.
Yep, that's the way it occurred, from the text:
18 But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5
..i.e., You have been reconciled, be ye therefore reconciled to God.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Faith leads to repentance = reconciliation
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
With all their might. God killed them otherwise.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I was stating it objectively.
I already believe I have it straight.
I believe you are correct.
John Calvin did not teach "Particular Redemption" ( the atonement of Christ for His sheep alone ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ) ), if my observations are accurate.
This is why, when some people call me a "Calvinist", I simply reply, " If I am a "Calvinist", then I would believe and teach everything that John Calvin did "...which included infant baptism, universal atonement and some other things I'm not remembering at the moment.
By extension, if I were an "Arminian", then I would believe and teach everything Jakob Hermanszoon ( "Jacobus Arminius" ) taught.
If I were a "Wesleyan", then everything, verbatim, that John Wesley taught.
I'm not.
I believe on and in Jesus Christ and His words, not the teachings of men ( 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 ).
I agree, but I don't agree with how Calvin stated it.
The Gospel is a declaration...an announcement, not an offer as in God saying, " You do this and I will do that".
It's not a market deal that hinges upon man making a choice.
If it were, then eternal life would be a reward, not a gift.
God will not be indebted to sinful mankind in any way ( Romans 4:4 ).
He owes us nothing.
His "offer" was never an offer.
His salvation is His work, not our "cooperative work".
Bless you sir.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Answering for myself...
If I were asked the question, the first thing I would state is this:
He's addressing those that have already believed...not unbelievers.
On a side note: To me, anyone who uses this passage when speaking to an unbeliever, is using it out of context.
Here's more of the passage:
" Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." ( 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 )
Breaking it down, here's how I understand it:
17) If any man ( human ) be "in Christ", they are a new spiritual creature.
18) All things are of God ( from God ), who has reconciled us ( the believer, those that are "in Christ" ) to Himself, BY Jesus Christ, and has given to Paul and Timothy ( 2 Corinthians 1:1 ) the ministry of that reconciliation.
19) "To wit" ( that is to say ), that God was "in Christ", reconciling the world ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, those out of every tongue, tribe and nation ) to Himself, not imputing ( crediting ) their ( believers out of every tongue, tribe and nation ) to them, and has committed to Paul and Timothy the word of that reconciliation...the Gospel.
20) Paul and Timothy, being ambassadors for Christ, as though God did urgently ask the believers at Corinth by them...They ask the Corinthians in Christ's stead to be reconciled, in their minds, to God.
21) Because He ( God the Father ) has made Christ to be sin for us ( all believers ), who knew no sin, so that we ( all believers ) might be made the righteousness of God "in Him".
In no way is Paul telling unbelievers to be reconciled to God.
He's telling believers to be reconciled to God in their minds, repenting towards God ( 2 Corinthians 7:9-10 ).
With all of that established, it isn't all "automatic"...there's something for believers to do, which is to walk worthy of their "calling", and to make their calling and election sure...in their own selves and minds.
I think you're confusing what's called "Hyper-Calvinism" ( which is that "God causes everything", thereby making God the author of both goodness and sin ) with what the Bible teaches about election and predestination.
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Exactly! From the very first sentence of the letter:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia: 2 Cor 1
….well, for that matter:
Romans:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.....To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:
2 Corinthians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:
Galatians:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Philippians:
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Colossians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ that are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
1 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
2 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;
1 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Titus:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God`s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,......to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Philemon:
Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:
Hebrews:
.....Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling,.....
James:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting. Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;
1 Peter:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Peter:
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:
1 John:
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
2 John:
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;
3 John:
The elder unto Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth.
Jude:
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:
Revelations:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
37818
Well-Known Member
You got it backwards. It is repentance to faith. For example as in Mark 1:15.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You must believe before you would ever think of repenting. Jesus is telling his Jewish to have a change of mind and believe the gospel.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree, Dave.
To me, many people, in their minds, turn the grace of God into something other than His grace.
I also don't think they really understand what they are doing, either.
They place human volition above God's proclamation of that grace, and place man's "free" will ( it's not free...it's guided by our nature, whether we are born again or dead in sins ) above God's will.
In the process, man's will to be saved from eternal torment then causes him to look at the Gospel as a means to an end...
Escape from Hell.
...instead of the means to call God's children to Himself and enjoy that eternal relationship that they have been called to, which is to know God and His blessed Son, Jesus Christ ( John 17:3 )
It's not just escape from Hell, it's escape to a relationship with the Lord.
One cannot have the one without the other.
From my perspective, gut the Bible of election and predestination, and one can have that escape without God's active grace.
With "passive grace", man then decides whether or not to "accept the offer", bypassing quite a bit of Scripture to get there.
At the risk of offending some, that is how I see it, and I've said many times before, this "accepting " of Christ as Saviour is not the Gospel.
It is the will of men.
Well I for one, believed on Christ during the preaching of His word, and later I was taught that it was my choice.
OK, in a certain sense it appeared that way.
Then, later on, I learned that it was God's choice that led to my "choice"...
But it was never my choice that led to God's choice.
If true, that would make God dependent upon my efforts ( works ) to gain eternal life, instead of His efforts ( grace ) to give me that life.
May God, in His wisdom, be pleased to show you the depths of that grace, and to bless you with remembrance of it on this American day of thanksgiving.
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37818
Well-Known Member
No.. Unless one changes one's mind [biblical repentance] it is not possible for one to believe what one has not believed. Mark 1:15.
It is the false gospel of the cults which teach believe and repent (work).
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Converting from the Old Covenant required a believer to change their mind and enter the New Covenant through the gospel and Christ.
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes. And a non-believer must change one's mind to believe too.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But they believe or they wouldn't change their mind.
37818
Well-Known Member
Everyone does not believe to begin with. So how did they believe without changing their mind first?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
They were OT believers converting to the NT.
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