Nor do I. That's an area we didn't cover, but I also don't believe man's will is free, not by any stretch. I don't buy into pelagianism nor semipeleghanism at all.
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How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.
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Nor do I. That's an area we didn't cover, but I also don't believe man's will is free, not by any stretch. I don't buy into pelagianism nor semipeleghanism at all.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
If you don't mind me pointing out, that is what this thread is about...how man's will, being free to choose or not to choose, and how it relates to salvation.
One side says that God makes the will free, but before the new birth..."Prevenient Grace".
This results in God giving all men what is necessary to make the right choice, provided the right conditions exist.
With Prevenient Grace, the reason why some believe when the Gospel is preached, and others don't, is determined by man...the hearer.
Therefore, the new birth is dependent upon how men react to the Gospel...making the Holy Spirit at least partially incapable of working the "rest of the way" without a man's permission.
Salvation then is available, in a manner of speaking, to each and every person...provided that missionaries blanket the earth with the preached word of God, and each and every person gets the chance to hear it.
The roll call of God's saints is then ultimately determined by the actions of men, putting God's foreknowledge as "foreseeing", in the impersonal, objective sense.
The other side says that God makes the will free, as a consequence of the new birth..."Electing Grace".
This results in God giving only His elect what is necessary to "make the right choice", provided the right conditions exist.
With God's Electing Grace, the reason why some believe when the Gospel is preached, and others do not, is determined by God...not the hearer.
Therefore, the new birth is dependent on how God works, and who He works in.
Salvation then is available to each and every person God has chosen, and only to those He decides to work in...making the Holy Spirit fully capable of carrying out whatever He wants.
The roll call of God's saints is then ultimately determined by the actions of God, putting God's "foreknowledge as "foreknowing" in the personal, subjective sense.
Now I'd like to ask a question:
Which one do you think offends people, in general, the most?
I'd say that it's the one that completely strips man of everything that can be "done", every "avenue of approach" to God, that results in us as sinners escaping eternal damnation.
If I had to say what is at the core of the problem, that is the main sticking point.
May God bless you.
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Indeed. But what I wanted to do was get to an even deeper root of the issue. If you are right that faith is meritorious and righteous apart from God's reckoning, then yes, this means means it can't be of man in any sense or measure. Man can't conjure up anything righteous.
But if you're wrong and faith is not meritorious and not a work (which Scripture seems to say over and over), then the freewill issue does not destroy the Gospel and turn it into works as you claim.
And I think the burden of proof is on you. You admitted that you don't know anyone else holding the view that faith is meritorious apart from God's reckoning. I think i know the reason. It's unbiblical. Faith is not a work and creates no obligation. Paul is adamant about this (Rom. 4:1-8).
Before I can go any further, you have to make a good case that faith is righteous apart reckoning. Your entire thesis rests upon it.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
To me, that is for another thread.
May I direct you to this one, in order to help answer some of your questions?
Where Does Faith Come From II
Okay, interesting. So explain how faith can be righteous but not meritorious. First time I've ever heard this distinction. Can you please define both?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Wait a sec.
Did you just basically state that faith is a work?
Maybe we do need another thread.
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Wait a sec.
Did you just basically state that faith is a work?
Maybe we do need another thread.
No, faith is not a work. I won't go to another thread because this is my objection your claim in your title. The reason I disagree with your title is because it implies faith is a work.
Go back and re-read my edited post, please.
Faith is meritorious...but it is not what merits salvation.
Nothing merits salvation.
The only merit we have is God and His mercy.
Okay, change noted. So let's go from here. You say faith is meritorious but not enough to merit salvation. So why would God give us an inadequate faith that isn't righteous enough? I'm assuming you believe that God then took this not-good-enough faith that is from Him, and reckoned it as good enough so that we're saved by it. Correct?
But, can anything from God be not-good-enough?
And BTW, where did you get this idea, that faith is meritorious but not meritorious enough. Can you point to any Scripture that supports this?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That wasn't my thread.
My belief is that faith is a gift from God ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
Therefore, true faith, coming from God, is one of the many things that God gives His children to accomplish His purposes.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
With respect, I think that we've drifted far from the OP.
He didn't.
The only reason it seems inadequate, is because there are two types of "faith", and two types of "believers".
No.
We are not saved by faith, we are saved through it.
Faith is a gift.
Anything that comes from God is not meritorious, in that we did anything to receive it.
Rather than get into that here, may I suggest that either we can start a new thread, or you can review my responses to RevMitchell in the thread I listed?
I think those answers would give you a very good point from which to proceed.
BTW, let's look at the entire verse.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
Saved by grace (reckoning) through faith (belief) is the give of God. I agree with that 100%. That whole thing is the gift of God. But you are removing the grace, seemingly, and saying that faith, in and of itself is righteous (though now you say not righteous enough).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Start a thread, and I will be more than happy to answer your questions.
For now, this thread is going way past the OP's focus.
I bid you a good evening.
My contention is that your OP implies that faith is a work of righteousness that merits salvation. That's why freewill is a problem for you, because it implies that something good comes from man. I contend that faith is not a meritorious work, and therefore free will is not a problem. It does not destroy the Gospel as you claim.
So, if you want to leave it at that, I'm good. I've made my point. I don't think you have an answer for it.
I don't have any questions. I disagree with you that faith is a meritorious (but not meritorious enough) work (your newest position). Therefore I disagree with the premise of your OP in this thread. I'll only discuss further if you want to try to defend your position, but only here. Otherwise, I've made my point.
I know this isn't the focus you want, because it undermines your premise, but it's on topic.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
This turns the gospel into law and grace into works.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Flesh faith is sin. Holy Spirit faith after the new birth is Biblical faith provided through the witness of the Spirit in our heart.
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This thread will be closed sometime after 10:15 AM Pacific.
Uh no, since it is Gods will and design your characterization is incorrect.
How gnostic of you
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