You accused me of holding to a position I have never claimed and in fact I reject. I have never seen anyone claim that position. You do not get to characterize my position any way you want just so you can defeat it. If you cannot repeat my position in my words then don't try.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.
- Thread starter 1689Dave
- Start date
- Status
You accused me of holding to a position I have never claimed and in fact I reject. I have never seen anyone claim that position. You do not get to characterize my position any way you want just so you can defeat it. If you cannot repeat my position in my words then don't try.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Sorry if that is the case. But why defend free will if you do not subscribe to the theory?
No no I do not subscribe to your characterization of it. Two completely different things.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
So what is your view?
sigh I have explained to you over and over again.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It still seems to me you think a response to the gospel is necessary before salvation happens. My position is that salvation happens in the new birth, the gospel announces the main trait of the saved as believing, and then instructs believers to repent and be baptized.
Okay, but what do you believe reckoning actually mean?
So God gifts people with faith and then he has to judge it to be worthy. That makes no sense whatsoever.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
to "consider" as being righteous even though we are not righteous in ourselves.
Ah, there we go. So would you agree with this statement?
If faith (regardless of who it came from) needs be reckoned as righteous, then we can conclude that faith, in and of itself, is not righteous.
Agree or disagree?
Last edited:
I know what your position is. I do understand that the biblical view is a response is necessary by God's design.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Disagree.
True faith, in and of itself, is righteous.
Why?
Because it's Author ( Hebrews 12:2 ) is righteous ( 1 John 2:1 ).
Only those that possess it are saved, and have the favor of God upon them.
I hope the fact that I view biblical faith as a "precious commodity" isn't confusing to you.
Now, if you're asking if true faith in Jesus Christ is righteous-ness, then to me, that's a different question that requires a different answer.
Last edited:
There you go. That is our principle disagreement. That's why you believe freewill is a problem. While we may not resolve this disagreement, it's good to know what the main sticking point is. Virtually all disagreements of this sort, I have found, come down to this small point. Is faith, in and of itself, righteous?
Let's go a little further. If God is the author of faith, and if faith is already righteous, then why does faith need to be reckoned as righteousness?
You said reckoning was "to "consider" as being righteous even though we are not righteous in ourselves."
Why would God need to consider something righteous that is already righteous? Look carefully at the passage.
Rom. 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
"...their faith is credited..." Notice it's the faith that's credited. Why would God need to credit something as righteous that's already righteous?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I don't believe that free will is the problem...
I believe that "free" will is the problem.
You appear to believe that, even in our rebellious and God-hating state, man's will is somehow unbiased.
I don't.
I see man's will, before God doing the work to change the heart, as fully biased against Him.
That depends on where it came from, and who has it.
Are we talking about biblical faith, or man's "faith"?
Only Christ's sheep have the righteousness "of" God or "of" Christ ( Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, 2 Corinthians 5:21 ).
Only Christ's sheep have the faith "of" Christ ( Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22 ).
They are both "credited".
Because God said it happens that way.
Why does He require people to believe on His Son, in order to inherit eternal life?
Because He set it all up, not me.
I'm just going by what He says.
Faith is righteous, in that it is a work of righteousness....or "out of" being made righteous.
" What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." ( Romans 4:1-5 ).
But simply focusing on Romans 4 will not tell us everything that we need to know about where faith comes from and why.
As you can see, this passage does not tells us the answer to that very question.
I didn't ask Him.
His word tells me that even though He gave it to me, He credits me with believing on His Son, as righteousness.
So, I believe it.
Why?
Because I'm one of His sheep ( John 10:26 ).
Because I'm ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )
Because I was given to Christ by His Father ( John 6:65, John 17:2 ).
Because I was chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
Because He gave me the ability to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ).
...and "ears to hear"...etc, etc.
Because I believe His every word... without too many questions, at least..
What I've found is, it's not one main sticking point.
It's really whether or not two people understand the Scriptures, the same way.
@1689Dave and I do, to a great extent.
Dave and others in this thread...
Not so much.
Last edited:
Well God said faith is credited, but you said that faith is already righteous. I'm merely asking why you believe faith is already righteous apart from God's reckoning? That's seems a fair question.
True, but avoiding Romans 4 won't help us either. Paul clearly says "their faith" has to be made righteous by God's reckoning. That's Paul, not me. That seems to implicitly say that faith is not righteous in and of itself. And if true, that solves your freewill concerns.
It seems to me your whole argument hinges in the assertion that faith is already righteous and meritorious. If you're wrong on that, you're wrong on your basic thread premise.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is...in Romans 4.
It is righteous, in that it is a work of righteousness...it proceeds out of someone who is made righteous ( Hebrews 11:1-12 ).
Believers not only do things by faith, they also cannot do them if they do not have it.
I hope I'm not losing you.
Because it is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
Because without it we cannot please God ( Hebrews 11:6 ).
Because it is not authored by men, but by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
Anything that comes from God is righteous and holy.
For example:
" But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost," ( Jude 1:20 ).
Faith here is said to be "holy".
The only way it could be holy, is if it came from someone that IS holy...Jesus Christ.
I disagree.
The matter of the will, and what man's condition before God is, should be dealt with apart from what true faith is, and where it comes from.
Chaining them together only muddies the waters, from my perspective.
In addition, I don't base anything that God's word says, on implication...to me, that's a slippery slope that I need to stay off.
I'm more interested in what he declares, and it's those declarations that I hold onto, firmly.
Last edited:
Yes, but none of these say faith is righteous apart from God's reckoning. Only you have said this to my knowledge.
We both agree faith is good after it's reckoned by God. God counts our faith as good, and holy. But only you say faith is good and holy apart from God's reckoning. I'm wondering how you came to this conclusion.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I never said it wasn't credited.
I'm sorry that you've never met anyone before me that has said this.
I thought it may have been at least common knowledge somewhere.
Actually, I don't.
What I believe is that true faith is not only good, it's so good that God uses it to impute the righteousness of His Son to us, by.
It's "circular", in that the "requirements" become evidence...otherwise, it's works, not grace ( Romans 11:5-6 )
God gets all the credit, because it's all of Him...even true faith.
Anything good comes from God ( John 3:27, James 1:17 ).
Since man cannot boast in anything but the Lord, then anything he has that "results" in salvation, actually comes from Him.
That way, man can never say, "see, I believed and the other guy didn't."
Because the reason for even believing on His Son, is because of Him and His gifts.
That is what makes me sit quietly, sometimes, and wonder in amazement.
That's why it's called, "Amazing Grace.".
I tried to draw it out for you in post #256, but I don't think you followed me.
Last edited:
...that faith is already righteous apart from God's reckoning. I've actually never heard anyone say this, and I've talked to a lot of determinists over the years. They just don't go there. If you can direct me to some quotes of theologians explicitly saying this, I'd appreciate it. I think you might find yourself on a an island with this one, even among those on your side of the general debate.
all Christians believe this. What you believe that is unique is that God didn't even have to count it as righteous because it was already righteous. He just counted it righteous again. That's the sticking point of disagreement. And it's probably going to be our impasse. I don't think either of us will budge on this.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't know who to direct you to, since my understanding of Scripture doesn't come from theologians.
It comes strictly from reading His word.
That's fine with me.
I'm used to being on an island.
But I personally know of others that believe the way I do...it's just that there aren't very many of us.
Perhaps in theory, but not in practice.
Ask most Christians how God gets all the credit, and most cannot seem to answer it, at least thoroughly.
Some claim that God setting up His plan of salvation is what gives Him all the credit.
I disagree.
To me, who, how, why, and what is contained in the "plan" are what give Him all the credit.
Actually, as I was posting to you in this thread, it just came to me all of the sudden.
Because God is holy, so are His gifts.
One of those is true faith that abides, and endures to the end of our lives.
What we, as believers cling to Christ with, when all is said and done.
I can respect that.
But I also think that our points of disagreement actually go far deeper than what you've stated above.
The will and what it's condition before God, is but one of them.
What I see from Scripture is, man's will is not "free", and it doesn't need a "boost".
God giving it a boost won't help, because it takes more than "Prevenient Grace" to change a man's will.
It's dead, right along with the entire man, in trespasses and sins.
It's chained to the nature like a ball, and we drag our nature around wherever we go.
The will is in bondage to our sin nature.
Change the nature, and the will follows...
Willingly.
- Status