How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

[MB]

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, (To believe on me?) to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake Acts 9:15,16

The free will of God or Saul?

This does not say God saves men so they can believe.
MB

 

[utilyan]

Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.

In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep free will, we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into law and works.

Other examples are the Philippian jailer who after the earthquake asked Paul “what must I do to be saved?” And Paul told him “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. Jesus says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions. Or he would not have asked. But free will turns this into law and thinks salvation happens only after the jailer kept the law.

One more illustration is where Paul says “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Romans 10:9 (NASB95). But again, a person must already believe with their heart, that is be saved, or they would not do this.

"So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions.So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions."

So Jailer was born again, saved, fully regenerated, without hearing the gospel, without knowledge of Jesus Christ and not know he is saved and what he must do to be saved.

"One more illustration is where Paul says “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Romans 10:9 (NASB95). But again, a person must already believe with their heart, that is be saved, or they would not do this."

Then he should have said "if you are saved then you will confess with your mouth Jesus as lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead".

Backwards, backwards, backwards.

Sounds like damage control for a flawed theology. Whereas I simply point to what the scripture says without having to change its meaning.

 

[Dave G]

Sounds like damage control for a flawed theology. Whereas I simply point to what the scripture says without having to change its meaning.

As do I.

The very words on the page are what I point to, and accept without having to change their meaning.
But that practice will only work for a while, because at some point one will run into ( apparent ) contradictions.
What I'm curious to know is, when you run into verses like these:

" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:" ( 2 Corinthians 4:3 ).

" For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." ( 1 Timothy 2:3-4 )

...what do you do with them?

 

[1689Dave]

"So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions.So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions."

So Jailer was born again, saved, fully regenerated, without hearing the gospel, without knowledge of Jesus Christ and not know he is saved and what he must do to be saved.

"One more illustration is where Paul says “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Romans 10:9 (NASB95). But again, a person must already believe with their heart, that is be saved, or they would not do this."

Then he should have said "if you are saved then you will confess with your mouth Jesus as lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead".

Backwards, backwards, backwards.

Sounds like damage control for a flawed theology. Whereas I simply point to what the scripture says without having to change its meaning.

Yes, the new birth is salvation. The jailer believed because he was saved. Just as all whom the Father gave to Jesus will come to him.

 

[1689Dave]

All Calvinist need to understand and accept , they are blaming God for the creation of sin, Satan impugns God through the misguided church

Adam wanted to sin based on the reasons God provided for him to base his choice on. People want to sin or they would not. But God directs their steps.

 

[InTheLight]

Adam wanted to sin based on the reasons God provided for him to base his choice on.

And there you have it--God caused Adam to sin. God is the author of sin. Calvinism laid bare.

 

[1689Dave]

And there you have it--God caused Adam to sin. God is the author of sin. Calvinism laid bare.

Here's the proper understanding. God is the cause because nothing can exist apart from him. But Adam is the author.

A simple story about sovereignty and free will.

A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat chooses to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and also the goat choose to travel.

People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God controls the reasons.

London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession: Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;

“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

 

[robycop3]

He believed but needed instruction. He would not have asked if he didn't believe.

OF COURSE he didn't believe beforehand! If he had, he'd had no need to ask !

The jailer was likely a Roman, not a Jew. He likely knew the Jews worshipped a different God from the Roman pantheon, but almost certainly hadn't heard the Gospel. If he had, he'da had no need to ask what he had to do to be saved !

 

[1689Dave]

OF COURSE he didn't believe beforehand! If he had, he'd had no need to ask !

The jailer was likely a Roman, not a Jew. He likely knew the Jews worshipped a different God from the Roman pantheon, but almost certainly hadn't heard the Gospel. If he had, he'da had no need to ask what he had to do to be saved !

You believed you could drive a car before you learned how.

 

[robycop3]

Here's the proper understanding. God is the cause because nothing can exist apart from him. But Adam is the author.

A simple story about sovereignty and free will.

A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat chooses to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and also the goat choose to travel.

People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God controls the reasons.

London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession: Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;

“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

No, God placed the "forbidden" tree in the garden & told A&E not to eat from it. They had a free choice. And Eve listened to Sneaky Snake & believed him over God & so made the choice on her own. And Adam likewise listened to Eve. God didn't make them do it; they did it on their own.

 

[1689Dave]

No, God placed the "forbidden" tree in the garden & told A&E not to eat from it. They had a free choice. And Eve listened to Sneaky Snake & believed him over God & so made the choice on her own. And Adam likewise listened to Eve. God didn't make them do it; they did it on their own.

They freely chose to sin. But God provided the reasons they based their choices on. Did he not?

 

[Dave G]

God placed the "forbidden" tree in the garden & told A&E not to eat from it. They had a free choice. And Eve listened to Sneaky Snake & believed him over God & so made the choice on her own. And Adam likewise listened to Eve. God didn't make them do it; they did it on their own.

Agreed.

They freely chose to sin. But God provided the reasons they based their choices on. Did he not?

Yep.

But I also remember when I was grappling with all this, that my eyes often fell on passages like this, or my mind was eventually driven to them:

" Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" ( Job 39:2 ).

"Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it." ( Job 40:2 ).

" Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?" ( Romans 9:19-20 ).

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen." ( Romans 11:33-36 ).

 

[percho]

This does not say God saves men so they can believe.
MB

I agree, it says he saves them, to /unto, belief. Which is exactly what he did with Paul. Paul was going down the road in unbelief and the Lord who had chosen him, called him, and three days later, baptized him with the Spirit of truth unto belief.

 

[1689Dave]

I agree, it says he saves them, to /unto, belief. Which is exactly what he did with Paul. Paul was going down the road in unbelief and the Lord who had chosen him, called him, and three days later, baptized him with the Spirit of truth unto belief.

You are confusing the new birth with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MB]

I agree, it says he saves them, to /unto, belief. Which is exactly what he did with Paul. Paul was going down the road in unbelief and the Lord who had chosen him, called him, and three days later, baptized him with the Spirit of truth unto belief.

This below is when Paul submitted to Christ.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
You see Paul admitted that Christ was Lord. Yes He was no doubt shocked. Paul was scared in to submission. That is submission and surrender. Yet the submission came after the Lord appeared and spoke to Paul. His submission proves He had a choice. If had been saved before submission He would not have been so scared.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

This below is when Paul submitted to Christ.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
You see Paul admitted that Christ was Lord. Yes He was no doubt shocked. Paul was scared in to submission. That is submission and surrender. Yet the submission came after the Lord appeared and spoke to Paul. His submission proves He had a choice. If had been saved before submission He would not have been so scared.
MB

Only Paul from among the group heard and discerned Christ = born again.

 

[utilyan]

Yes, the new birth is salvation. The jailer believed because he was saved. Just as all whom the Father gave to Jesus will come to him.

Ok sure thing. Im pretty certain your in your own little rowboat of theology.

You signing off that a person need not be christian or have any knowledge of Jesus to be saved.

The Jailer was born again, saved, fully regenerated, without hearing the gospel, without knowledge of Jesus Christ and not know he is saved and what he must do to be saved.

So we don't have to evangelize, preach or do anything at all.

A saved person is out there and has absolutely no knowledge of Jesus Christ.


All a person has to do is ask. So if Bob asks what must he do to be save? Well you need to serve Allah and believe Muhammad is his prophet and does so. Well Bob is saved "because he couldn't ask unless he was saved in the first place"

Brilliant.

 

[1689Dave]

Ok sure thing. Im pretty certain your in your own little rowboat of theology.

You signing off that a person need not be christian or have any knowledge of Jesus to be saved.

The Jailer was born again, saved, fully regenerated, without hearing the gospel, without knowledge of Jesus Christ and not know he is saved and what he must do to be saved.

So we don't have to evangelize, preach or do anything at all.

A saved person is out there and has absolutely no knowledge of Jesus Christ.


All a person has to do is ask. So if Bob asks what must he do to be save? Well you need to serve Allah and believe Muhammad is his prophet and does so. Well Bob is saved "because he couldn't ask unless he was saved in the first place"

Brilliant.

It's all about bringing in the born again sheathes.

 

[percho]

No, God placed the "forbidden" tree in the garden & told A&E not to eat from it. They had a free choice. And Eve listened to Sneaky Snake & believed him over God & so made the choice on her own. And Adam likewise listened to Eve. God didn't make them do it; they did it on their own.

My thoughts and or IMHO.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7
for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 Darby

God made the flesh and blood man from the dust of the ground, breathed into it's nostrils the the breath of the spirit of lives which went into the lungs then into the blood making that made from the dust of the ground, flesh and blood, living soul.

When Jesus commended his spirit, into the hands not to the right hand of the Father but into the hands of the Father, which gave his blood and flesh life, made it living soul, Jesus died and was dead for three days and three nights. As dead as David, still was, on the day of Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus.

Before Adam was created Jesus, the Christ, was foreordained to shed his precious blood, wherein was the spirit from God which gave life to his flesh making it living soul.

Adam was created flesh and blood from the dust of the ground for the very purpose of bringing forth death.
Jesus, for a little while, was made lower than the angels because of, the death. What death? The death that the devil had the power of before Adam was even created?

God, before the foundation of the world, was going to destroy the devil, the sinner from the beginning, and his works, including the death, through the flesh and blood Adam and the Sion of God, manifested in the figure of Adam, by redemption through the soul of the flesh in the blood. of the Son of God.

1 Peter 1:18-20 1 John 3:8 Heb 2:14, Gal 4:4,5

The law that caused the creation to need to be redeemed was;
thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Because they were created, of the flesh, carnal, that law was weak. They would need to be redeemed.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20

V's 19,21 also relevant

 

[utilyan]

It's all about bringing in the born again sheathes.

That is not what you are telling us, Dave. You are telling us its all about just asking "what to do?"

You said: "So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions. Or he would not have asked. "

So if any Joe Blow out there ask what must he do to be saved, in that instant he is saved, OR HE WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED.

Irregardless of what religion, denom, etc, etc. Doesn't even have to know who Jesus or the Gospel.


You are not thinking through your own rules. You want a "mini-regeneration" to explain people doing the right thing prior to being born again.


You have a problem with by which MEANS God chooses to exercise his will.

You don't believe the GOSPEL can change a person to clarify, you don't believe that GOD can change a person my means of a Gospel and a preacher.

That hearing the gospel only gives God "PERMISSION" to make a DIRECT internal change of a person's heart. He has a control board in heaven and unless God pushes the button that regenerates you then you will not.

He has LIMITED sovereignty, LIMITED OMNIPOTENCE.

According to you He couldn't achieve the same thing by the SHOCK of miracle the Jailer witnessed.

Neither could he achieve the same thing with some little girl crying for food.

He can't do things his way, he has to do it YOUR WAY.


Jesus said of being born again its like the wind. You know when its there, but you don't know where it came from or where it goes.

But the mistake your making here is you are insisting to know exactly where the wind comes from and where it has to go.



It couldn't possibly the sheer fright of having the earthquake with all the jail doors opening and he is ready to kill himself.....cause suicide is what born againers do? NO.

He is GETTING saved, He was not saved yet.

God does not need to follow your rules to save anyone.