"How I Learned the Doctrine of Election"

[KenH]

od being omniscient can and in fact does know what is going to happen before hand.

Of course, God knows what is going to happen beforehand. God ordains all things.

 

[KenH]

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (emphasis mine)

"which were born". "Were" is past tense. It precedes believing.

 

[KenH]

So now your claiming that all those who you think are the prechosen saved ones were born sinless.

No. All of Adam's descendants come into existence dead in trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1)

 

[KenH]

What you are saying is that you do not trust in your own God given intelligence to make real choices.

I don't trust in my fallen, natural, fleshly nature at all for my salvation. I think we may have reached the crux of the matter. You evidently believe that man is born pristine when it comes to his will, with the ability to choose something outside of his fallen, natural, fleshly nature. He does not.

Romans 3:9-18 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Ephesians 1:1-5 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved; )

Evidently you don't believe that when God said "dead" that He meant "dead". You must think that when Adam fell that man's nature did not become corrupt. Reminds of what I grew up being taught in the Church of Christ.

Evidently, you think this skeleton can do something to put flesh on itself and participate in bringing itself to life.

 

[canadyjd]

foreknew G4267
to know. To perceive or recognize beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow.
The Complete Word Study Dictionary

God being omniscient can and in fact does know what is going to happen before hand. I realize that you have trouble accepting this but He even knows who will freely trust in His son.

Context determines meaning. The passage says, “Those He foreknew”…. It is clearly speaking of God knowing these folks in a relationship sense, not that God knew something about them.

I realize you have trouble comprehending the truth of scripture, but you shouldn’t embrace unbiblical doctrine like what you expressed at least twice that….

“..many are saved having never heard the gospel”.

Such thinking is clearly refuted by scripture.

peace to you

 

[KenH]

“..many are saved having never heard the gospel”.

Such thinking is clearly refuted by scripture.

Absolutely. @Silverhair or anyone espousing such is certainly in error about that.

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[Silverhair]

Of course, God knows what is going to happen beforehand. God ordains all things.

So your saying that all those that are in hell are there because God ordained it to be that way. Interesting theology you have.

 

[KenH]

So your saying that all those that are in hell are there because God ordained it to be that way. Interesting theology you have.

Romans 9:20-24 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Silverhair]

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (emphasis mine)

"which were born". "Were" is past tense. It precedes believing.

You got that right, those that believe/received Him we then born of God. That is just what God has said, those that freely believe are those that are born of God. If they do not believe then they are not born of God are they. As I said before you seem to have a real comprehension problem. Read this again " But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:" Note the order, received Him, become children of God.

 

[KenH]

You got that right, those that believe/received Him we then born of God. That is just what God has said, those that freely believe are those that are born of God. If they do not believe then they are not born of God are they. As I said before you seem to have a real comprehension problem. Read this again " But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:" Note the order, received Him, become children of God.

"Were born" precedes believing. The Biblical order is the new birth(regeneration), then come repentance from dead works and faith in Christ as the first responses granted by God to the newborn babe in Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

No. All of Adam's descendants come into existence dead in trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1)

Remember your the one that said "Apparently, you don't believe that Christ really meant it when He said, "It is finished." You think it requires you to act to complete the process."

So my question for you is, what do you think Christ Jesus meant when He said "it is finished"?

I know what it means in the bible context so what do you say it means?

 

[KenH]

Remember your the one that said "Apparently, you don't believe that Christ really meant it when He said, "It is finished." You think it requires you to act to complete the process."

So my question for you is, what do you think Christ Jesus meant when He said "it is finished"?

I know what it means in the bible context so what do you say it means?

Christ finished all that the Father sent Him to do as the Surety for all of the Elect that God had given to Him. He perfectly fulfilled the law on their behalf and His perfect righteousness was imputed to them so that they stand in His righteousness before God.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't trust in my fallen, natural, fleshly nature at all for my salvation. I think we may have reached the crux of the matter. You evidently believe that man is born pristine when it comes to his will, with the ability to choose something outside of his fallen, natural, fleshly nature. He does not.

Romans 3:9-18 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Ephesians 1:1-4 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Evidently you don't believe that when God said "dead" that He meant "dead". You must think that when Adam fell that man's nature did not become corrupt. Reminds of what I grew up being taught in the Church of Christ.

Evidently, you think this skeleton can do something to put flesh on itself and participate in bringing itself to life.

Well it is clear that you do not understand what a MIDRASH is so just do a search for it under my name. I have explained it more than once.

You do realize that you should read the whole sentence if you want to know what the author intended to say. The conclusion can be found in Eph 1:13. Man can respond to the gospel message and God will save those that trust in His son.

You should start trusting in all the scriptures not just the ones that you think support your view.

 

[KenH]

Well it is clear that you do not understand what a MIDRASH is

Is there some kind of topical ointment you can put on that rash of yours? Maybe consult your doctor.

 

[Silverhair]

Context determines meaning. The passage says, “Those He foreknew”…. It is clearly speaking of God knowing these folks in a relationship sense, not that God knew something about them.

I realize you have trouble comprehending the truth of scripture, but you shouldn’t embrace unbiblical doctrine like what you expressed at least twice that….

“..many are saved having never heard the gospel”.

Such thinking is clearly refuted by scripture.

peace to you

Context does indeed determine meaning, God foreknows those that will freely trust in His son. But you want it to mean that God saved those that would trust in His son before they even trust in His son. Your putting salvation before faith. You sound just like Loraine Boettner

Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved."

What I said is that man can and have been saved without having heard the gospel message. Or do you not think those in closed countries can be reach by our sovereign God? You have much less faith in what God can do than what you profess, or so it seems. But then again I am not a calvinist so I just trust the bible, I actually know that God is sovereign. Whereas you just seem to think He is.

 

[Silverhair]

Absolutely. @Silverhair or anyone espousing such is certainly in error about that.

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

As I said before you do not seem to really believe that God is sovereign. You want to keep Him in your little box so you can control Him. Shame really, you should trust scripture more and you man-made theology less.

 

[Van]

People are chosen because God chose them.

Romans 9:15-18 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh: “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then, God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden. (emphasis mine)

Thus agreement with 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says God chooses those that have "faith in the truth." But this fact is what Calvinism denies.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 9:20-24 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I have no problem with those verses. Man, via his God given free will, either accepts or rejects Christ Jesus. Problem for you is that you have to have God choose those to save and those to condemn. These verses speak against what you hold to, determinism.

 

[Silverhair]

"Were born" precedes believing. The Biblical order is the new birth(regeneration), then come repentance from dead works and faith in Christ as the first responses granted by God to the newborn babe in Christ.

As I said you agree with Loraine Boettner "A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved" which is unbiblical.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

So you have to choose which you will follow, the Bible or Boettner.

 

[Silverhair]

Christ finished all that the Father sent Him to do as the Surety for all of the Elect that God had given to Him. He perfectly fulfilled the law on their behalf and His perfect righteousness was imputed to them so that they stand in His righteousness before God.

So are you claiming that only the elect were saved at the cross? Just want to be sure of your position.