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How important is knowledge in getting saved?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
- Start date
Christianity is based on the person and work of Jesus Christ; what he said and what he did. All that he claimed was verified by the resurrection, the cornerstone of Christianity, and one of the most verifiable facts of history. The religions of the world have dead founders. We serve a living Saviour.
billwald said:
GE:
Which is worse, a religion or a scam?
Christianity - both as The Faith (Church) and as individual, personal faith (believing) - is neither.
"It is the Power of God" - no better definition! Therefore, as DHK has said, the resurrection of Jesus Christ forms its cornerstone, and fills its total content and overflow.
First by this rule is excluded from true Christianity, Roman Catholicism, that lives by the blood of the dead only untill this very day -- a religion of fear and therefore a religion of works and self-righteousness.
"Faith comes by hearing" ... and knowledge thus obtained, and is directly limited by Election. Most humans never hear of Jesus Christ -- it already is pure mercy that some should hear. Then it is pure mercy and grace that few are given an ear to hear what they hear savingly, changing them, regenerating them through the power of the indwelling Spirit of Christ. IT NEVER GOES WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE, IN FACT, WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION. "Oh that I may know HIM, and the power of His RESURRECTION ...." Jesus The Beginning of the creation of God - both old and new.
And by this rule, who will stand in the day of judgement?
I'll soften my question and ask, what doctrine shall stand in the day of judgment -- whether it is truly Christian, or, just 'religion' or 'scam'?
I'll soften my question and ask, what doctrine shall stand in the day of judgment -- whether it is truly Christian, or, just 'religion' or 'scam'?
If Roman Catholicism were Christianity, it would immediately stop and bann its grotesque and rampant idolatry. Because idolatry is based on ignorance.
I know of two 'churches' at least that say there's a difference between idolatry and 'iconatry' - they both lack understanding of the true knowledge of the Gospel of Christ. Iconatry is as much a scam and religion as is idolatry. The knowledge of the resurrection of Christ assures the difference is irreconcilable. His resurrection cannot be but believed - it is impossible to capture in picture or semblance whatever.
Correction, word-order: "His resurrection cannot be but believed ", should be: "His resurrection cannot but, be believed ". Sorry and thanks. Makes a huge difference though.
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Idolartry - Yes, I would agree that the same should be done of Baptist who measure ones wealth as a scale of God approval, yet never having enough. Got to watch out that hypocrisy.
Yes ignorant indeed.
Or, those who elevate student teachings above the Teacher in order to justify their Ideal faith.
And, those who elevate certain supernatural gifts above basic teachings of love.
xdisciplex said:What happens if a person wants to get saved and accept Jesus but the person doesn't have enough knowledge about God and the gospel? Can everything fail because of a lack of knowledge or because of misconceptions or misunderstandings? Let's say somebody is sincere and wants to get saved but he has misconceptions and thinks that works matter or that Jesus only died for the sins which you do until you repent and after that you have to pay a penalty every time you sin then could such a person not be born again because the misconceptions are simply too big? I mean if somebody really doesn't know it any better then does God sit up there and simply deny that the person gets born again?
Maybe you can only get saved when you heard the full gospel before and when somebody explained everything to you before. But what about those which had no access to the full gospel or those which only have a limited knowledge about Jesus and which still want to get saved?
To All,
bmerr here. As so often happens, the discussion has wandered away from the OP. I also noticed that of all the responses, not one actually looked to a conversion account from the Scriptures to answer the question. Nice to be back.
It is a fact that preconcieved notions and misconceptions commonly keep people from a knowledge of the truth that will set them free (John 8:32). The wording of the OP indicates that xdx has some of his own.
To see just what one must know in order to be saved, let's look at the first gospel sermon ever preached in Acts 2.
Beginning in 2:21, Peter gives the intended result of his preaching, that being that the hearers will call on the name of the Lord and be saved.
He goes on to tell of Jesus' miracles, etc, which his audience was aware of, and of the fact that it was by the predeterminate council and foreknowledge of God that Jesus had been delivered up for crucifixion and slain.
Then Peter tells that Christ has been raised from the dead by God, and quotes some prophetic verses from the Psalms, showing how they were about Christ, and not about David.
He again proclaims that Christ has been raised from the dead, and that he and the rest of the apostles had witnessed the risen Christ. Peter wraps up his sermon declaring that God had made this same Jesus, whom his audience had crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Up to this point, Peter's audience has been told of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Their hearts have been pricked with the guilt of having crucified the long-awaited Messiah, and they have believed Peter's preaching of the gospel. What knowldedge do they yet lack?
They need to know how to call on the name of the Lord, and so they ask Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Let us all acknowledge that those who heard Peter's sermon knew there was something they were to do in order to call on the name of the Lord. Can we agree on that?
So what did Peter, who was under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, say in answer to the questioning crowd? "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost."
To summarize, the knowledge required for one to be saved is simply the gospel message and how to respond to it. Apart from this, there is no salvation.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr:
"They need to know how to call on the name of the Lord . . . the knowledge required for one to be saved is simply the gospel message and how to respond to it. Apart from this, there is no salvation."
GE:
Your explanation contains self-contradictory statements.
If the Lord knew them, they would be saved, and will learn and 'know how to call on the name of the Lord'. For 'the knowledge required for one to be saved is simply the gospel message, fulstop! 'Apart from this salvation', there is no knowing 'how to respond to it'.
"They need to know how to call on the name of the Lord . . . the knowledge required for one to be saved is simply the gospel message and how to respond to it. Apart from this, there is no salvation."
GE:
Your explanation contains self-contradictory statements.
If the Lord knew them, they would be saved, and will learn and 'know how to call on the name of the Lord'. For 'the knowledge required for one to be saved is simply the gospel message, fulstop! 'Apart from this salvation', there is no knowing 'how to respond to it'.
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Your statement seems to suggest that people are saved by the Lord before they believe in him. (I hope this isn't the case)
So which comes first, salvation or knowledge?
It seems like you are saying salvation to me.
Your logic does not fit scripture:
Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
GE: How would you answer Pauls questions above? One by one please.
Or maybe I misunderstood. In that case, sorry.
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Responding to the OP question, I would remember the Robber at the Cross didn't have much knowledge about God and His Son, but knew that Jesus was the Savior for him, and just asked Him to remember him.
Now the problems with the people of today is that they know too much about the world, about the theories on God and Bible etc which are not spiritually established but theoretically understood. Maybe we should remove the knowledges of our own instead of trying to have more knowledge. Then we will become humble enough to be accepted by Him.
1 Cor 1:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty
Pray God to humble down yourself, to help you to come closer to God, then finally you will see the great world waiting for you, which is in Jesus Christ, fianlly you will realize that you were already forgiven at the Cross and you are now a son of God thru Jesus christ and because of what Jesus has done for you. Your sins are not forgiven because you prayed enough now, but were already forgiven at the Cross. The only thing that you achieve now is that you realize such fact and truth now with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. YOur intellectual understanding cannot change your life, but the Holy Spirit dwellin in you can change your life.
Now the problems with the people of today is that they know too much about the world, about the theories on God and Bible etc which are not spiritually established but theoretically understood. Maybe we should remove the knowledges of our own instead of trying to have more knowledge. Then we will become humble enough to be accepted by Him.
1 Cor 1:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty
Pray God to humble down yourself, to help you to come closer to God, then finally you will see the great world waiting for you, which is in Jesus Christ, fianlly you will realize that you were already forgiven at the Cross and you are now a son of God thru Jesus christ and because of what Jesus has done for you. Your sins are not forgiven because you prayed enough now, but were already forgiven at the Cross. The only thing that you achieve now is that you realize such fact and truth now with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. YOur intellectual understanding cannot change your life, but the Holy Spirit dwellin in you can change your life.
Eliyahu said:
actually one of the thieves did showed repentance through faith in what he knew of Christ not to mention any previous knowledge he had before the cross.
Here are some things that he probably heard:
"King of the Jews" - if he had any knowledge of Jewish faith this may not be a new thought.
Matthew 27:42 "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel!
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.
Luke 23:32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. (so they must have heard quite a bit along that road.:
Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' 30Then
" 'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!"
and to the hills, "Cover us!" '[d] 31For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.
luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
THIS DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE TO ME. AND HE DIDN'T ALWAYS FEEL THIS WAY ABOUT JESUS EITHER - (Matthew 27:44 In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.)
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
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Eliyahu.
bmerr here. Something else to consider with the thief is that since Jesus was still alive, the Old Testament was still in effect (Heb 9:16-17). The thief was saved without a doubt, but he was not saved under the New Testament, which all men are subject to today.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. Something else to consider with the thief is that since Jesus was still alive, the Old Testament was still in effect (Heb 9:16-17). The thief was saved without a doubt, but he was not saved under the New Testament, which all men are subject to today.
In Christ,
bmerr
Eliyahu said:
Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.
God expects people to know him. Have knowledge of him!
Knowledge is NEEDED to love God.
But its not the only thing needed:
1 Corinthians 8:1
We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
The goal in our knowledge of God is to Love, not just to be smart.
Also, who can truly love without knowing how? God is love, so know the Lord and you will know how to love.
So do you believe that much knowledge is necessary for the salvation?
Were the OT people saved by their works, while NT people are saved by grace?
Do you know that even the people in OT era were saved by the redmption of the shadow of Christ?
Read Luke 16:31, why did Jesus say this?
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead
Were the OT people saved by their works, while NT people are saved by grace?
Do you know that even the people in OT era were saved by the redmption of the shadow of Christ?
Read Luke 16:31, why did Jesus say this?
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead
bmerr said:
Great point and added with that:
Luke 5:20-24
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...."
While Jesus lived on Earth he forgave sins of those who had faith before His New covenant was instituted. Yes there is a "transition" or "overlap" of new covenent teachings while He was on Earth, but his new Covenant could not be invoked prior to the Sacrifice that God requires.
Eliyahu said:
What do you mean by "MUCH" knowledge?
Both OT people and NT people received Grace from God in order to have faith in Him.
Yep. But not all had the forsight of the prophets, but only need to obey the prophets current instruction for them at that time to show that they had faith in God.
The have the Prophets testamony and that is enough for them to have faith in God.
(Luke 16:29
"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
Luke 16:31
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "