How important is knowledge in getting saved?

[DHK]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation = Christ + Faith + nothing.
Salvation (grace) = Christ + faith + nothing.

Salvation = Christ + faith + baptism = heresy or baptismal regeneration

Eph.2:9 says: "not of works.

Baptism = works.

Salvation is not of works; salvation is not of baptism.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu,

bmerr here. Moses did not live under the New Testament. You and I do.

In Christ,

bmerr

GE:

How does one explain that in truth Moses and all the OT saints are just like us saved 'under the New Testament?
One may tell him to go read Hebrews 11 etc. yet it will be of no avail if not that person himself realises that to be saved means to be saved 'under the New Testament'.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation = Christ + Faith + nothing.
Salvation (grace) = Christ + faith + nothing.

Salvation = Christ + faith + baptism = heresy or baptismal regeneration

Eph.2:9 says: "not of works.

Baptism = works.

Salvation is not of works; salvation is not of baptism.

GE:

Is there any necessity left for water-baptism then? If it's of no use for the individual, it's of no use for the Congregation. I do not believe water-baptism, but the baptism of Christ, which is the baptism "into the Name" (eis to onoma), a baptism "centered in the Name of Jesus Christ" (epi tohi onomati) "into forgiveness of sin" (eis afesin hamartiohn).
It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit = regenration

 

[bmerr]

bmerr,
You are obssessed with the human works. Gospel is very sime and easy for everybody.
Repent, Hear the Gospel, Believe, and you will be saved.

Eliyahu,

bmerr here. I don't think I'm obsessed with human works. Titus 3:5 is clear that we are not saved by "...works of righteousness which we have done..." I'm not advocating anything other than that which is commanded under the New Testament, where we will not read, "Repent, Hear the Gospel, Believe, and you will be saved".

Jesus Christ has paid all the price for the sins of the people by shedding the Blood and dying at the Cross, and thereby God forgave all the sins of the people.

It would be more accurate to say that forgiveness for all the sins of mankind was purchased at the cross, though forgiveness is only given to those who obey the gospel.

Do you see this?
Which testament is Paul talking about by the Holy Scriptures? Wasn't it Old Testament? Doesn't he say that the scriptures make thee wise unto salvation thru faith in Jesus Christ? Why does Paul refer to the OT during the NT times?

The Old Testament contains sufficient information to allow the honest reader/student to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Upon this realization, one can obey the commands of the gospel of Jesus Christ through faith and enjoy the blessings of salvation.

What does make you ignore the Old Testament?

I didn't know I was. We were discussing a New Testament doctrine, so I cited verses from the New Testament. Is that not how I should be carrying on the conversation?

You never presented your own interpretation about Exodus 20:23-24.
I exepcted you cannot, because you are obssessed with works.

I was not aware that I had been asked for my interpretation of Ex 20:23-24. I'd say it means what it says. The Israelites were not to make gods of silver or gold to set alongside of Jehovah. They were to erect an altar of stone to offer sacrifices on.

Those verses tell you this. The altars are the shadows of Jesus Christ and His Crucifixion, you cannot add anything onto what Jesus has done, that's it. You should not make the stone Altar with the hewn stone, because no human works can be added.
Now you are trying to build an altar with hewn stone, which is nonsense to the view of God. No one can add anything to what Jesus has done at the Cross. Could you understand?

Apparently you got a lot more out of those verses than I did. I don't understand where you got all of that from, though.

Eli, baptism for the remission of sins was not my idea. It was not me that inspired men to preach it, or to record it for us in our New Testament. God, through the Holy Spirit and the authority of Jesus Christ came up with the idea and recorded it for us in Holy Writ. The only reason I preach it is because I read it in God's word.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

DHK,

bmerr here. I haven't heard anyone boasting about their having been baptized.

Salvation = Christ + Faith + nothing.
Salvation (grace) = Christ + faith + nothing.

Salvation = Christ + faith + baptism = heresy or baptismal regeneration

Eph.2:9 says: "not of works.

Baptism = works.

Salvation is not of works; salvation is not of baptism.

I guess Jesus was a heretic then, since He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mark 16:16).

And I guess we've finally found a contradiction in Scripture, since Peter said "...he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is accepted of him" (Acts 10:35).

And I suppose even belief is not required for salvation, since belief is identified as a work in John 6:28-29.

Getting saved just gets easier and easier the more Bible we get rid of!

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

GE:

How does one explain that in truth Moses and all the OT saints are just like us saved 'under the New Testament?
One may tell him to go read Hebrews 11 etc. yet it will be of no avail if not that person himself realises that to be saved means to be saved 'under the New Testament'.

Gerhard,

bmerr here. Who said OT saints were not saved? Not I. However, anyone who has been saved since Acts 2 has been saved under the conditions set forth under the New Testament, or they have not been saved at all.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard,

bmerr here. Who said OT saints were not saved? Not I. However, anyone who has been saved since Acts 2 has been saved under the conditions set forth under the New Testament, or they have not been saved at all.

In Christ,

bmerr

GE:

All the saved from the first saved, have been saved by grace through faith, that is, by and through Jesus Christ, the only Saviour of all saved.

 

[bmerr]

GE:

Is there any necessity left for water-baptism then? If it's of no use for the individual, it's of no use for the Congregation. I do not believe water-baptism, but the baptism of Christ, which is the baptism "into the Name" (eis to onoma), a baptism "centered in the Name of Jesus Christ" (epi tohi onomati) "into forgiveness of sin" (eis afesin hamartiohn).
It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit = regenration

Gerhard,

bmerr here. It's an interesting study, that of the "one baptism" of Eph 4:5. Some things to consider are the fact that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was to be administered by Jesus Christ (Luke 3:16), and was never commanded, only promised (John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:7, 13-15; Acts 1:4-5, 8), and only to the apostles.

Immersion in water for (unto) the remission of sins, however, was commanded. This baptism was to be administered by men, was to be in, or into, the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and was to continue until the "end of the world (Matt 28:20).

There's more to the study, but those are a few of the high points.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"You should not make the stone Altar with the hewn stone, because no human works can be added."

GE:

I think this is a great observation! It shows men in the OT past lived by faith in the NT present. Not through works but through faith in Jesus Christ, by grace, are those saved who are saved. I can only add that no human works may, be added! Don't obtrude God with vanity!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard,

bmerr here. Who said OT saints were not saved? Not I. However, anyone who has been saved since Acts 2 has been saved under the conditions set forth under the New Testament, or they have not been saved at all.

In Christ,

bmerr

GE:

I say, anyone who had been saved before Acts 2 was saved under the conditions set forth under the one, the New Testament and Eternal Covenant of Grace, or they have not been saved at all (water-baptism or no water-baptism)!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

So what's the use or need of water-baptism? Dispensable though as is the indispensible baptism of Jesus Christ through the recreating power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"You should not make the stone Altar with the hewn stone, because no human works can be added."

GE:

I think this is a great observation! It shows men in the OT past lived by faith in the NT present. Not through works but through faith in Jesus Christ, by grace, are those saved who are saved. I can only add that no human works may, be added! Don't obtrude God with vanity!

Excellent Understanding! I heard that interpretation since 33 years ago when I was born again. Now I hear often from Messianic Jews.
We can only believe what Jesus has done already, If we try to add any human efforts, it defiles What God has done.

 

[Tazman]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation = Christ + Faith + nothing.
Salvation (grace) = Christ + faith + nothing.

Salvation = Christ + faith + baptism = heresy or baptismal regeneration

Eph.2:9 says: "not of works.

Baptism = works.

Salvation is not of works; salvation is not of baptism.

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead

1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


1 John 5:7-9

7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.

 

[Tazman]

So what's the use or need of water-baptism? Dispensable though as is the indispensible baptism of Jesus Christ through the recreating power of the Holy Spirit.

Did you ever stop to think that the use is not up to you to decide?

Really? When did God ever asked you to limit the value of His Baptism to us?

You are elevating life experiences above Jesus' design that included everything accompanying God grace.

All you and DHK and Eli have offered on the table is nothing but your own interpretation based on your own lack of acceptance of Jesus' commands.

Just because a person may "feel" a heart change does not mean the are saved without baptism, but that is how far you have gone.

 

[Tazman]

DHK:

What do YOU mean by "WORKS"?

then....

Where does the bible say that baptism is work?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Tazman quoting:

"Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead"

GE:

Read this together with Romans 6 - both passages expressly speak of co-baptism with Christ in His death and in His resurrection. Not by our own doing.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Tazman referring:

"1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

GE:

What better explanation is possible that is NOTbaptism in or by water that saves, but that baptism OF WHICH, quote, "this water" (through which eight souls were saved), was the "SYMBOL".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"The baptism that now saves you" is actually defined there and then and indisputably : "You are now saved by the resurrection of Christ". Recall Romans 6 here, how that we are baptised with Christ, in Him and through Him, in His death and resurrection, and through it, and with it. It is the baptism of faith, by faith, in Jesus Christ. It is not, 'water-baptism'. Water-baptism was a sign and proof of Apostolic Authority. We after them are just disciples; never anything more.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Again quoted by Tazman:

"1 John 5:7-9

7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son."

GE:

We accept man's testimony - it being that of God's appointed planters of the Faith the Apostles. Yet the testimony of God is greater, which He has given about His Son - the Testimony of the Holy Spirit to every believer that comes to faith through His operation in the inner parts of fallen and lost human beings. Because they are recreated by His testimony, and are given victory through Jesus Christ, they can "accept" and do accept and follow Jesus.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Tazman:

"... His baptism to us ..."

Have you seen it with your eyes? Then mine are blind. Have the Spirit ever witnessed with yours that you are a child of God? Then the two of us may confess we have seen 'His baptism to us'.

We have both seen with our eyes, thousands, yea millions of the Church's baptism administered through water to us. It in not one case was His baptism to us.