How many times are we "made alive" in the process of salvation?

[Skandelon]

Personally, (and I do not think Skan agrees with me here) I feel that the fall affected us "horribly", but I think that the ability to respond to God, the ability to believe and have faith, based on the message of the gospel is naturally designed grace of God (prevenient grace). It "seems" to me that "we" quibble over where (when) this prevenient grace comes into the picture.

I don't know there is much disagreement. I just believe the GOSPEL is the means through which God's grace is applied to the fallen man. One can't believe truth until they hear truth. Faith comes through hearing.

Some insist, but there MUST be a work of the Spirit, and I have to remind them that the gospel IS a work of the Spirit. It was breathed by Him, it is preserved by Him, and it is carried by messengers indwelled by Him, so anything the Gospel accomplishes SHOULD be credited to God and God alone. Why would anyone insist that this work of the HS is insufficient and thus must be accompanied by an additional working of the HS?

The Gospel IS the POWER of God unto Salvation. For many Calvinists, the prior work of regeneration is the POWER and the gospel is just there to inform them of the power that has already come. I don't believe that is biblical.

 

[quantumfaith]

I don't know there is much disagreement. I just believe the GOSPEL is the means through which God's grace is applied to the fallen man. One can't believe truth until they hear truth. Faith comes through hearing.

Some insist, but there MUST be a work of the Spirit, and I have to remind them that the gospel IS a work of the Spirit. It was breathed by Him, it is preserved by Him, and it is carried by messengers indwelled by Him, so anything the Gospel accomplishes SHOULD be credited to God and God alone. Why would anyone insist that this work of the HS is insufficient and thus must be accompanied by an additional working of the HS?

The Gospel IS the POWER of God unto Salvation. For many Calvinists, the prior work of regeneration is the POWER and the gospel is just there to inform them of the power that has already come. I don't believe that is biblical.

What I often take away from my "reformed" brethren is that there is (must be) a distinct event of regeneration thus allowing man to respond to the Gospel message. I do not "accept" this (take this idea from) scripture, rather I am "convinced" that man retains this ability have faith and belief from birth (the abilty to respond to the gospel in faith and belief). As you the say, the gospel message itself, is indeed a expression of this grace.

 

[Skandelon]

What I often take away from my "reformed" brethren is that there is (must be) a distinct event of regeneration thus allowing man to respond to the Gospel message. I do not "accept" this (take this idea from) scripture, rather I am "convinced" that man retains this ability have faith and belief from birth (the abilty to respond to the gospel in faith and belief). As you the say, the gospel message itself, is indeed a expression of this grace.

Right, there is no biblical evidence that mankind is born unable to hear the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel appeal to be reconciled to God. However, if one does hear it and rejects it over and over they can grow hardened to his revelation. The bible doesn't say they are born hardened and defiled. It says they are born "clearly seeing and understanding" the revelation of himself. It is only when they hear and reject over and over that they become hard and are then "given over" to their defiled hearts and minds.

 

[quantumfaith]

Right, there is no biblical evidence that mankind is born unable to hear the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel appeal to be reconciled to God. However, if one does hear it and rejects it over and over they can grow hardened to his revelation. The bible doesn't say they are born hardened and defiled. It says they are born "clearly seeing and understanding" the revelation of himself. It is only when they hear and reject over and over that they become hard and are then "given over" to their defiled hearts and minds.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thanks for "crystalizing" it for me.

 

[glfredrick]

Thanks, I have read it SLOWLY, but still do not take from it what you do. Now I offer for your slow perusal.

Which comes first, faith or regeneration? That is indeed the question. I cannot think of a more important theological issue with respect to the controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism. It is the defining feature concerning the question of whether or not God’s saving grace is irresistible. Calvinist James White would seem to agree,

The question is: Does [God raise sinners to life] because men fulfill certain conditions, or does He do so freely, at His own time, and in the lives of those He chooses to bring into relationship with Himself through Jesus Christ? The question is normally framed in the context of the relationship of faith and regeneration. Do we believe to become born again [regeneration], or must we first be born again before we can exercise true, saving faith? (Debating Calvinism, pg 198)

Many Arminians choose to focus on the proof texts offered by Calvinists in order to deal with their claim that God’s grace is irresistible. While this is a noble approach (and one we will deal with in a future post) it is far more effective to examine the Biblical evidence which directly addresses the question of priority. Does the Bible tell us anything about this subject, or must we rely on the prior claims of a theological system as James White implies,

Objections to irresistible grace are, by and large, actually objections to the previously established truths of the doctrines of grace [i.e. Calvinism]. Obviously, if God is sovereign and freely and unconditionally elects a people unto salvation, and if man is dead in sin and enslaved to its power, God must be able to free those elected people in time and bring them to faith in Jesus Christ, and that by a grace that does not falter or depend upon human cooperation. (ibid.)


http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/29

The fly in this ointment is that "faith" is a gift of God in the salvation process. Yes, justification is by faith -- absolutely! But according to the Ephesians passage I cited above, "faith" is not present in us or because of us, but by God who's grace grants it. Even Arminian theology stipulates this very clearly. I recommend a review of the Articles of the Remonstrance, but again, to clarify that I am speaking truth in this matter.

If we are using a "logical order" (which is necessary, because the ordo salutis is a logically derived doctrine) then timing is a non-issue. It is not as if one is regenerated 10 years before faith comes, nor if they are faithful 10 years before regeneration comes. I see that all -- from the human perspective -- (including justification and adoption, which are also required for salvation) are instantaneous. The error comes, then, in attributing TIME to a logical proposition when no time may actually elapse.

 

[psalms109:31]

I know i didn't wake up one day and I had faith. I believed in many things, but it wasn't given to me by God.


God changes what I believe and gives me faith through the words about Jesus and from Jesus.

What I believe my own understanding changes by the faith given me through His word. This is why those who believe in Him will be saved and those who do no not will continue to condemnation, both is faith given to us by the words of God, so that those who are even condemned are condemned by the faith given to us.

 

[Skandelon]

The fly in this ointment is that "faith" is a gift of God in the salvation process. Yes, justification is by faith -- absolutely! But according to the Ephesians passage I cited above, "faith" is not present in us or because of us, but by God who's grace grants it. Even Arminian theology stipulates this very clearly. I recommend a review of the Articles of the Remonstrance, but again, to clarify that I am speaking truth in this matter.

Yes, but its not "granted" irresistibly so, and the means by which it is "granted" is through the gospel.

Example: Could God have changed Jonah's will to go to Nineveh by just "flipping a switch" so to speak? IOW, could he have just supernaturally made Jonah to be willing by making his heart different and thus willing? Of course. He is God.

BUT, how did God change his will? Through OUTWARD and "NORMATIVE" means. He uses circumstances to reveal to Jonah that you can't run from God and thus changes his will. In the same manner God uses the GOSPEL (outward and normative means) to reveal to man their need for a savior. Those means are meant for all mankind but may be rejected. That doesn't LESSON the grace of the giver, nor should it remove in any respect the GLORY due to God who provides the Grace and MEANS for that GRACE to be applied.

 

[glfredrick]

I guess you think one proof-text deserves another?

It's fine to make an accusation of proof-texting, but back it up by showing how the verse means something different than what I've presented. For example, in the verse you present, nothing is said regarding HOW God made us alive together with Christ. Could it be through the gospel being heard and believed? Of course it could.

Aw, come on... God very clearly said in that passage that salvation is nothing of us. There is no precursor indicated, such as we having faith that led to His justification. You can read and work with the languages as well as anyone, but in this case, you are asking that we IMPORT a concept alien to a rather lengthy unified passage (versus a one-line proof text) in order to better understand it? That dog does not hunt.

Where does it even speak of being made alive prior to faith in the this verse? You are just reading something into the verse that isn't there by presuming that they must have been made alive prior to their hearing and believing the truth, which is unfounded.

You realize, of course, that you are now making an argument from silence to support a THEOLOGICAL position that you eisegete into the text, right?

I am reading the text plainly, and it says, plainly, that God acted when WE were dead in sin and trespasses. It is difficult to get more plain than that. I am not "importing" any theological doctrine -- just reading the text as written.

 

[Skandelon]

I see that all -- from the human perspective -- (including justification and adoption, which are also required for salvation) are instantaneous. The error comes, then, in attributing TIME to a logical proposition when no time may actually elapse.

Just one point on this. Romans 8 speaks of "eagerly awaiting our adoption, the redemption of our bodies," which I think is an important distinction because our adoption as sons is really not complete until glorification. So, that is something Paul clearly sees as a process we wait for the completion of in the future.

So, elsewhere when Paul speaks of US (believers) being predestined to adoption as sons, you must ask yourself:

1. Are lost people being predestined to become believers and thus be adopted as sons upon their glorification?

OR

2. Are believers in Christ predestined to be adopted?

In other words, has God predetermined who will and won't believe, or has God simply predetermined what will become of all those who believe and follow Him?

If a coach determines before the season starts that his team will be in top condition, does that in anyway imply that he will be the one determining who and who will not try out for the team?

 

[kyredneck]

Right, there is no biblical evidence that mankind is born unable to hear the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel appeal to be reconciled to God.

Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2:14

The natural man must be born of the Spirit BEFORE he can know or receive the things of the Sirit of God. How much plainer can it be put?

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father`s name, these bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10

However, if one does hear it and rejects it over and over they can grow hardened to his revelation. The bible doesn't say they are born hardened and defiled. It says they are born "clearly seeing and understanding" the revelation of himself. It is only when they hear and reject over and over that they become hard and are then "given over" to their defiled hearts and minds.

Can you show all this from scriture? I'd like to see it.

 

[glfredrick]

To which verse are you referring? I'll need to read it in context. But, I will say now, that I'm not denying that believers still have the hope of life more abundant and even the eternal life which is to come. But the verse I presented CLEARLY states (as do others) that life comes BY FAITH, not the other way around.

The question you are not dealing with here is the origin of "faith."

In the Ephesians passage I cited, it said this:

Eph 2:7-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Other passages that speak in similar fashion include:

Heb 12:2 (NASB)
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 12:3 (NASB)
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

A real case can be made for exactly what you write -- that salvation comes by faith -- that is exactly what it says in Romans 10, but I sincerely believe that you are misplacing the origin of that faith, it being God, and not man's efforts, works, or otherwise human-centered in nature. Make that one small error in understanding and all else is finally skewed in a direction that leads one away FROM God and TO a reliance of human effort.

 

[glfredrick]

Right, there is no biblical evidence that mankind is born unable to hear the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel appeal to be reconciled to God. However, if one does hear it and rejects it over and over they can grow hardened to his revelation. The bible doesn't say they are born hardened and defiled. It says they are born "clearly seeing and understanding" the revelation of himself. It is only when they hear and reject over and over that they become hard and are then "given over" to their defiled hearts and minds.

Where... :wavey:

 

[Skandelon]

Aw, come on... God very clearly said in that passage that salvation is nothing of us.

And I agree in that we didn't earn it through good deeds or keeping his Law. He provided the atonement and he provided the means (gospel) by which we can respond. Just because WE can resist that which he gives doesn't make him any less of a provider or giver.

If a friend gave you and 10 other friends tickets to the next big ball game and 3 of your friends rejected the offer, so three other friends were given the tickets, does that make the giver less responsible for the providing the gift? Would you be less thankful to him, the giver? Why must a gift be IRRESISTIBLY applied for the gift to get full credit and glory for the giving?

You realize, of course, that you are now making an argument from silence to support a THEOLOGICAL position that you eisegete into the text, right?

No, actually your fallacy is the argument from silence. You are claiming that faith must follow their being made alive, when this particular text is silent on that point. So, you are adding your perspective into the silence of this text. On the other hand, the verse I presented is NOT silent on the matter. It clearly states that life comes through faith, not the other way around. You simply dismiss the verse as a proof text without qualification or explanation.

I am reading the text plainly, and it says, plainly, that God acted when WE were dead in sin and trespasses. It is difficult to get more plain than that. I am not "importing" any theological doctrine -- just reading the text as written.

We agree that God acted when we were dead. The question is, "What action did He take?"

You say seem to say that He supernaturally intervenes to regenerate them through some inward work of grace. I say, as I believe Scripture does, that God sent the gospel to make the appeal: "Be reconciled to God." Either way, it is God's gracious act and gift to which he rightly receives all the glory!

 

[kyredneck]

To which verse are you referring? I'll need to read it in context. But, I will say now, that I'm not denying that believers still have the hope of life more abundant and even the eternal life which is to come.

1 Tim 6:12

But the verse I presented CLEARLY states (as do others) that life comes BY FAITH, not the other way around.

As brought out in my previous post, ONLY the redeemed, born from above child of God is capable of believing and laying hold on that life.

 

[Skandelon]

Where... :wavey:

Where what? I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you are looking for?

 

[glfredrick]

I know i didn't wake up one day and I had faith. I believed in many things, but it wasn't given to me by God.


God changes what I believe and gives me faith through the words about Jesus and from Jesus.

What I believe my own understanding changes by the faith given me through His word. This is why those who believe in Him will be saved and those who do no not will continue to condemnation, both is faith given to us by the words of God, so that those who are even condemned are condemned by the faith given to us.

Does the Bible make faith and belief synonymous?

 

[glfredrick]

Where what? I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you are looking for?

The bible doesn't say they are born hardened and defiled. It says they are born "clearly seeing and understanding" the revelation of himself. It is only when they hear and reject over and over that they become hard and are then "given over" to their defiled hearts and minds.

I expect that one might be able to arrive at such a position "for all people" by carefully wrangling and proof-texting, but where does the Bible say precisely what you wrote?

 

[glfredrick]

Right, there is no biblical evidence that mankind is born unable to hear the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel appeal to be reconciled to God. However, if one does hear it and rejects it over and over they can grow hardened to his revelation. The bible doesn't say they are born hardened and defiled. It says they are born "clearly seeing and understanding" the revelation of himself. It is only when they hear and reject over and over that they become hard and are then "given over" to their defiled hearts and minds.

You just admitted above that the entire process is God, through and through, but in this response, you resort back to man having a controlling stake in the process.

 

[psalms109:31]

Does the Bible make faith and belief synonymous?

Faith is a noun, belief is a verb.

Faith is an object and can even be words

 

[kyredneck]

Right, there is no biblical evidence that mankind is born unable to hear the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel appeal to be reconciled to God.

Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2:14

The natural man must be born of the Spirit BEFORE he can know or receive the things of the Sirit of God. How much plainer can it be put?

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father`s name, these bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10

Not only is the above sound, plain "biblical evidence that mankind is born unable to hear the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel appeal to be reconciled to God", it clearly shows even with the person of Christ Himself speaking the gospel to them there are those who are totally incapable of faith.