glfredrick
New Member
Can a noun and a verb be synonymous?
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How many times are we "made alive" in the process of salvation?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Can a noun and a verb be synonymous?
psalms109:31
Active Member
A verb is what you do with the noun. God doesn't need to believe in faith that He has given, we do.
preacher4truth
Active Member
The absurdity of the belief quickening doesn’t precede regeneration lies in the fact that persons tend to believe they’ve made some ”move of faith,” and were thus rewarded for such move with eternal life.
Believing this, that said person "made a move of faith," or "exercised faith" begins to negate salvation in all its freeness as a gift, making it instead a reward, and shows salvation dependent upon "doing" something. Salvation isn't a reward for faith. Many persons believe the prayer they'd prayed secures salvation. Wrong again. Grace secures it, faith is only proof of one belonging to Him, coupled with good works, since the gift of faith is never alone.
But this is true whether one believes faith a gift or not, for if one in any way believes they've done one simple thing, the gift is then a reward, and was never Biblical salvation nor a gift. The belief is that faith preceded, came before eternal life, was exercised, gaining the reward for such. Instead, God made all the moves, giving faith, quickening and enabling one to believe unto eternal life. It is not a reward, it’s a gift. He does all of the quickening, not just part of it. Lazarus a prime example. He didn’t enable himself, Christ’s Word did it all. The same for all true believers, we did nothing, Christ did it all.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Proverbs 3:
a. 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[ Or will direct your paths ]
Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God;I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
a. 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[ Or will direct your paths ]
Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God;I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Sorry GL, no disrespect, but I don't see the "fly in the ointment" that you seem to see there. I have absolutely NO Disagreement concerning the need of God's grace...NONE.
You (yall) say that this "grace" comes in some form of a special dispensation as a result God's election. I believe this grace is offered to ALL mankind, and I have still heard no argument to suggest that it is not an inherent property of the imago dei. Surely something so theologically profound would have been enunciated clearly to Adam. I don't see that.
glfredrick
New Member
I'm from up nort' so "ya'll" is still alien to my thinking, and no disrespect taken! We can disagree theologically all day long without disrespecting each other or the doctrines we hold. Doesn't mean that we don't fight like cats and dogs over what we feel is truth, but that doesn't (or should not) go to the man, just the idea!
And, actually, it was given to Adam. God said, "Do this and die." Adam did, and died. Then, in Gen 3, God gave the proto-evangelum -- the promise of a Messiah who would come to set things right -- and it was there that GOD began a new mission in the world to redeem lost sinners.
No "special dispensation" required. in fact, it is Arminianism that has invented the category of "prevenient grace," a "special dispensation" of God's grace if ever there was one.
both cals and Arms affirm that man was so ruined by fall, that we MUST have God apply grace to us in order to have us "restored" enough from the fall in order to be actually able to hear the Gospewl and believe in jesus!
Cals affirm that God applies irrestible Grace to His elect, so that they MUST accept Jesus
Arms say God grants coomon grace to all. so that all can freely accept/reject Jesus
Think that unlike MR Skan, you are indeed a Arminianist!
See it as actually being BOTH...
God presentined/ordained those whom he would have Grace and mercy be applied to/on, and once they accept Jesus, they fall into the predestined plan of God to have then confirmed into Image of His Son Jesus!
Must be in the Lost Gospel of Paul somewhere!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
So, you don't believe the "brethren" Paul is addressing in the Corinthian church are really "brethren" at all? Because in the next several versus Paul states that they too are acting like natural men and thus cannot receive these same spiritual things. Clearly Paul is speaking about the inability of a man who is not walking in the Spirit do receive the "meat" of the word...the "deep things of God" (vs. 10).
Yes, this correlates to what he says to Israel elsewhere:
John 12:39: For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
They are being hardened and blinded in their rebellion for a great redemptive purpose, just like Pharaoh was.
Same context as above. Keep reading in that passage and you will see that Jesus speaks of another flock of sheep he will bring in. That is in reference to the Gentiles, "who will listen." (Acts 28:28)
The first flock of sheep were the remnant of Israel reserved from the hardening process by which they would be the foundation for the church and take the message of reconciliation to the rest of the world. Context is KEY!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
It's taught in Romans 1. The people referred to by Paul "knew God" in that they "clearly saw and understood" his divine qualities and eternal nature, thus they were without excuse for "trading that truth in for a lie." If the natural man can know God so as to be without excuse through this general revelation, how much more so are they when brought the special revelation of the gospel's truth?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Not really. I think we both agree that all good things come from God. Did he give everyone the ability to reason? Does that mean everyone uses that ability in the same way or unto the same end?
This is where the concept of responsibility (response-able) comes in.
Then you are misunderstanding my view, because I believe it is very much centered on God the giver of all good things. But, as I argued previously, our ability to reject or neglect God's provisions and gifts doesn't in anyway lesson His glory as the giver.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I am "no theologian" (I know some hate to hear that phrase), by that I simply mean I do not "professionally" study scripture. I am however, aware of a few things, such as you mention the "proto-evangelion", the announcement of YHWH that HE will be the victor. I do agree with you Adam died, but we differ on the "nuance" of what exactly that death means. Before anyone desires to label me as Pelagian (which I would not shy away from if I was in fact so), Pelagian felt that no work or even "influence" of God was necessary for man to move toward God. One might be able to label me as semi-pelagian as I do believe that salvation in essence is synergistic. I even think most reformers are also synergistic in essence, although I know that most do not feel that way.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I "personally" see no problem at all with what you have just expressed. Can I be an Arminian if I believe that one cannot "lose their salvation"? A label does not bother me at all, unless someone is using it in an intentional pejorative manner.
Actually think that He meant that in the Future, that God saw not just Isreal as His "chosen peoples" but that BOTH Jews/Gentiles were to come thru Him into one Body, Church...
Referring to all after this, NOT just "remnant" of jews back then!
think that an Arm refers to one who holds to what I wrote on Common grace..
I tend NOT to attach lose of salvation, as I think even Arminus himself stated "possibility" did not know for certain!
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
glfredrick
New Member
But that says nothing about the hardening you mentioned... Just a general sinful nature. I'm looking for you to back up the very special pleading you did concerning the hardening of a person.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Now you're turning the meaning a different way than your original how hardening happens.
Hmmmm.
Don't think anyone just says "believe" and bam, case closed. Demons "believe" and (apart from a few on the BB?) none are going to heaven. 
The Bible uses "shorthand" and "summary terms" that must involve the whole gammut of Bible teaching. "Believe" is one of those summary terms and we must see ALL that is involved with salvation, not just one tiny part.
My salvation involves
So when someone says "I was saved be believing" or "I was saved by calling on Jesus/praying a prayer" or "I was saved listening so a sermon" . . they are just sharing a SMALL PART of the whole "package" that we label as "salvation".
You cannot divorce one part of the above and be saved. If you were not regenerated/born again you are not saved. If you were not justified you are not saved. If you were not elect from before the foundation of the world, you are not saved.
It's a whole package, often summarized in shorthand terms. But all or nothing.
The Bible uses "shorthand" and "summary terms" that must involve the whole gammut of Bible teaching. "Believe" is one of those summary terms and we must see ALL that is involved with salvation, not just one tiny part.
My salvation involves
- Election in eternity by God, not based on anything I might say/do
- Foreknowing me as His beloved (nothing to do with fore-seeing like some mistakenly try to define foreknowledge as)
- Calling of God effectively on my life
- Union with Christ through:
....**Regeneration
....**Conversion
........***Repentance
........***Faith/Believing
....**Justification
....**Adoption
....**Sanctification
....**Glorification
So when someone says "I was saved be believing" or "I was saved by calling on Jesus/praying a prayer" or "I was saved listening so a sermon" . . they are just sharing a SMALL PART of the whole "package" that we label as "salvation".
You cannot divorce one part of the above and be saved. If you were not regenerated/born again you are not saved. If you were not justified you are not saved. If you were not elect from before the foundation of the world, you are not saved.
It's a whole package, often summarized in shorthand terms. But all or nothing.
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