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How many times are we "made alive" in the process of salvation?

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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Way to miss the point...

I was not rebuking you for your testimony, I was rebuking you for being Pelagian in the way you (believe) you were saved.
And this is a false accusation, isn't it?
In every action you shared in your testimony, YOU were the subject of the sentence, as if YOU called down God to be YOUR personal butler or bellhop.
Yes, I was the subject and Christ was the object, as it should be. IT was Christ that saved me. He bestowed his love for me. Even John 3:16 has those pronouns in it. They are clothed in "whosoever".
That YOU do not even realize that you are so doing, YOU have issues with both Scripture and with a divinely sovereign God who says that HE is the author and finisher of our salvation.
On this board I have probably quoted that verse more times than you have. The finger points both ways.
Timing in the matter doesn't really matter.
For a new believer does, and if you still don't understand that then you have not understood what I have said/posted.
You now have (I presume) years and years of study under your belt, and have participated in multiple discussions on this particular subject just since I've been a part of this board. Any excuse that you now make reflecting back to when you were yet ignorant (read Paul in Romans...) is null and void. We have already admitted that one may be ignorant at the point of salvation, but that does not change the fact that GOD is the author and finisher of that salvation.
And I never denied that fact once. I will repeat. I have probably quoted that verse more times than you have on this board. Why are you trying to falsely accuse me of something I don't believe. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
I believe people try to turn things around on us and try to make our testimony seem self-centered that we are to be ashamed of our own testimony and run to their belief where they try to say it is God-centered.

I know my testimony is God centered and in desire, desperate need of God to preserve me. I am saved because of God's word that those who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame or disappointed.

1 Peter 1:
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[Some early manuscripts from a pure heart] 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[Isaiah 40:6-8 (see Septuagint)]

And this is the word that was preached to you.
 
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TCGreek

New Member
In the human sense of time, they may be (and probably are!) instantaneous. In the logical order (ordo salutas) that we use to discuss the issue in a theological sense, there may be an order. Misunderstanding the difference between a theological discussion of the issue and the actual effects on the one saved is the leading cause (as I see it) for the later errors in doctrine.

A "theological sense" from whose perspective?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
And this is a false accusation, isn't it?

Yes, I was the subject and Christ was the object, as it should be. IT was Christ that saved me. He bestowed his love for me. Even John 3:16 has those pronouns in it. They are clothed in "whosoever".

On this board I have probably quoted that verse more times than you have. The finger points both ways.

For a new believer does, and if you still don't understand that then you have not understood what I have said/posted.

And I never denied that fact once. I will repeat. I have probably quoted that verse more times than you have on this board. Why are you trying to falsely accuse me of something I don't believe. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Just curious...

WHY do you have this "veiled' animonisty towards DoG though?

Seems that you get quite upset whenever some cal tries to talk/discuss on it!

Not saying anything "personal" here, believe you are a sincere Christian, just wondering why you so agitated while dialoging with cals here?
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Just curious...

WHY do you have this "veiled' animonisty towards DoG though?

Seems that you get quite upset whenever some cal tries to talk/discuss on it!

Not saying anything "personal" here, believe you are a sincere Christian, just wondering why you so agitated while dialoging with cals here?
It upsets me that Cals go to any extreme to mislabel or even slander their own brethren.

I am not a Pelagian, but yet I was called one. Does that sound fair to you?
I do believe the Bible, and have quoted that Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith many times. Yet I was just told that I don't believe that. Does that sound fair to you? Would not that make you a tad upset.

To be called an unbeliever in veiled language is not posting in grace and is grounds for an infraction, though I did not give one.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Just curious...

WHY do you have this "veiled' animonisty towards DoG though?

Seems that you get quite upset whenever some cal tries to talk/discuss on it!

Not saying anything "personal" here, believe you are a sincere Christian, just wondering why you so agitated while dialoging with cals here?
Let me answer that another way (far more simple and direct).

Why don't you Cals simply believe the Bible instead of Calvin.
That is what I strive to do.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
It upsets me that Cals go to any extreme to mislabel or even slander their own brethren.

I am not a Pelagian, but yet I was called one. Does that sound fair to you?
I do believe the Bible, and have quoted that Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith many times. Yet I was just told that I don't believe that. Does that sound fair to you? Would not that make you a tad upset.

To be called an unbeliever in veiled language is not posting in grace and is grounds for an infraction, though I did not give one.

Understand your points here, just saying that"cal" itself does not make one accuse you of things!

the system of Cal does not make one act way they do, its the "choice" to act the way they do!

personal attacks aside here...

just seems that you have a Big gripe against the DoG themselves, and that bleeds through your remarks to cals at times!
 

glfredrick

New Member
And this is a false accusation, isn't it?

Yes, I was the subject and Christ was the object, as it should be. IT was Christ that saved me. He bestowed his love for me. Even John 3:16 has those pronouns in it. They are clothed in "whosoever".

Not really... You posted what you posted. I just made comments based on what you posted. Now, if I had said something really out of line like, "DHK eats actual human flesh and drinks actual human blood when he takes communion," then you could rightly accuse me of false accusations.

As it was, YOU said that YOU made all the actions involved in your salvation, which may indeed have been the case. But, if so, you did not follow the biblical concept of salvation being (what was that verse again?)...

I am sort of confused that you somehow want to have your cake and eat it too, in that YOU wish to be the one who initiates your own salvation, but you also want to attribute your salvation solely to God. It is one way or the other, can't be both at the same time, and in that you said that YOU initiated it, I just commented that you followed a Pelagian theological tenet. Not sure why that is my problem... You either own up to what you are/did or you recant and change to a more biblical position.

On this board I have probably quoted that verse more times than you have. The finger points both ways.

Oh yeah... That one... :laugh:

For a new believer does, and if you still don't understand that then you have not understood what I have said/posted.

Still pretty sure you are not getting what I am saying, but I've made it abundantly clear if you re-read my earlier post.

And I never denied that fact once. I will repeat. I have probably quoted that verse more times than you have on this board. Why are you trying to falsely accuse me of something I don't believe. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

I'm not sure why my shame has to enter the picture at this point. Again, I've just commented on what you first wrote. If you, however, wish to be my judge, then we could turn to some additional Scripture that speaks to that issue... :thumbsup:
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Not really... You posted what you posted. I just made comments based on what you posted. Now, if I had said something really out of line like, "DHK eats actual human flesh and drinks actual human blood when he takes communion," then you could rightly accuse me of false accusations.

As it was, YOU said that YOU made all the actions involved in your salvation, which may indeed have been the case. But, if so, you did not follow the biblical concept of salvation being (what was that verse again?)...

I am sort of confused that you somehow want to have your cake and eat it too, in that YOU wish to be the one who initiates your own salvation, but you also want to attribute your salvation solely to God. It is one way or the other, can't be both at the same time, and in that you said that YOU initiated it, I just commented that you followed a Pelagian theological tenet. Not sure why that is my problem... You either own up to what you are/did or you recant and change to a more biblical position.



Oh yeah... That one... :laugh:



Still pretty sure you are not getting what I am saying, but I've made it abundantly clear if you re-read my earlier post.



I'm not sure why my shame has to enter the picture at this point. Again, I've just commented on what you first wrote. If you, however, wish to be my judge, then we could turn to some additional Scripture that speaks to that issue... :thumbsup:

just checking in here on point of being a pelagian...

is that someone who denies any additional "something" God has to do in order to have us be able to respond in faith to gospel..

just Gospel is suuficient, no extra Grace or anything else needed?
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Let me answer that another way (far more simple and direct).

Why don't you Cals simply believe the Bible instead of Calvin.
That is what I strive to do.

I am not certain if you are getting upset, but it appears that perhaps you are. This is when things go awry and when we get in the flesh.

Cals believe the Bible, and Sola Scriptura, and are not following a man, but God through His Word.

Do you have any theologians/preachers you read, enjoy, agree with? Or do you ever read anything theological in nature, theological works?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
But that says nothing about the hardening you mentioned... Just a general sinful nature. I'm looking for you to back up the very special pleading you did concerning the hardening of a person.

What specifically do you want to know? Here is a detailed post from another thread on this subject. Let me know if it doesn't answer your question:

...the doctrine of Judicial Hardening, which is not to be confused with "self-hardening," as explained in detail below:

1. Self-Hardening of the heart goes beyond the tragic obtuseness of our inherited condition in the Fall of man. Working on the fertile soul of our innately immoral hearts, the act of sinning hardens the heart into a stubborn rebellion against all that is good. So, people may harden their own hearts, in sinful rebellion, in bitterness, or in sheer self-will. (Ex. 9:34-35; 2 Chron. 36:13; Zech. 7:12; Dan. 5:20; Eph. 4:18; Heb. 3:12-15)

This type of self-hardening is most clearly seen in Zech. 7:11-13:

"Your ancestors would not listen to this message. They turned stubbornly away and put their fingers in their ears to keep from hearing. They made their hearts as hard as stone, so they could not hear the law or the messages that the LORD Almighty had sent them by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. That is why the LORD Almighty was so angry with them. ‘Since they refused to listen when I called to them, I would not listen when they called to me,’ says the LORD Almighty.”

2. Judicial Hardening -- In a few instances such as Pharaoh and the Egyptians (Ex. 7:3; 9:12), Sihon, king of Heshbon (Deut. 2:30), and the Hivites living in Gibeon (John 11:19-20), it is said that God hardened their hearts. Apparently these people were so irremediable in their rebellion against God that God entered into the hardening process so that he could accomplish his purposes in spite of, and yet in and through, that hardenness. It is God's prerogative, as God, to do this (Rom. 9:18-21). That they are morally responsible for their condition is a theological given, and we are warned not to harden our hearts as they did, a command that would make no sense if hardening were simply God's act (1 Sam. 6:6).

Israel's hardening as a nation was an act of self-hardening followed by God’s act of judicial hardening as clearly portrayed in the scripture (Matt. 23:37; Rom. 10-11).

God tells Isaiah that Israel, with its calloused heart, will reject him as God's messenger when he goes to them (Isa. 6:9-10). The event was taken as prophetic by Jesus (Matt. 13:14-15) and Paul (Acts 28:25-27) as referring to Israel's rejection of Jesus as God's Messiah. For Paul, Israel's hardening paved the way to a ministry of ingrafting the Gentiles (Rom. 10-11; Acts 28:28) and was not intended by God to be final, but only until the fullness of the Gentile’s ingrafting was accomplished.

Only the Word of God has the power to cut or pierce a hardened heart (Heb. 4:12) and he has given that word through his Son, the Apostles, the scriptures and by his Spirit all of which can be resisted and ignored as seen throughout the Bible as the hardenness and callousness of the heart only grows thicker with each act of rebellion.

According to scripture only those in a hardened state are unable to see, hear, understand and believe (Acts 28:26-28: John 12:39-40). Calvinism’s doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that everyone is essentially born in this condition due to the Fall of Man. The doctrine of Original Sin can clearly be seen in the scripture, but the Calvinistic system takes this foundational truth one step further by teaching that after the Fall God removed man’s capacity to willingly respond to the call of the gospel, yet God, according to Calvinism, still holds men responsible for that response. I can no longer see this as being a biblical position.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I am not certain if you are getting upset, but it appears that perhaps you are. This is when things go awry and when we get in the flesh.

Cals believe the Bible, and Sola Scriptura, and are not following a man, but God through His Word.

Do you have any theologians/preachers you read, enjoy, agree with? Or do you ever read anything theological in nature, theological works?
Yes, many; but not solely Calvinistic. Thus I am not blind to the truth as some others who are brainwashed here.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
Can it be any clearer?

The Scriptures are clear.

Did you need Divine aid in receiving Christ, or were you able to receive/choose Him without Divine aid?

I take it from the Scripture you've used you believe He enabled you and gave you faith. Just seeing if you are now embracing being enabled to receive Him, or not.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Yes, many; but not solely Calvinistic. Thus I am not blind to the truth as some others who are brainwashed here.

Who are your most cherished authors among Christians?

I also hold to many authors, and not only to those of one theological position. Probably couldn't tell you which way all of them lean either. It never really mattered to me. I do however think the insight of Cal/Reformed to write and interpret and give Glory to God on a higher level than others.

I don't believe there are any blind or brainwashed here. There are lot's of sin-washed and blood-washed though.

Now, I will state that there are some that hold to unscriptural perceptions of the Godhead/Attributes &c. I wouldn't though, call them blind, just in need of some interpretational/hermeneutical assistance.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Not really... You posted what you posted. I just made comments based on what you posted. Now, if I had said something really out of line like, "DHK eats actual human flesh and drinks actual human blood when he takes communion," then you could rightly accuse me of false accusations.
You make comments ignorantly and purposely inflammatory, just like a troll. Have you looked at when I joined this board? If you really wanted to know what I believed concerning salvation you could do a search.
As it was, YOU said that YOU made all the actions involved in your salvation, which may indeed have been the case.
That is false and you know it.
But, if so, you did not follow the biblical concept of salvation being (what was that verse again?)...
I believe you are ignorant concerning the true meaning of Eph.2:8,9 and couldn't give a proper exegesis of it if you tried. That is where you will find a good explanation of salvation. BTW, I have exegeted that passage many times on this board. Just do a search and you can find one of those many times.
I am sort of confused that you somehow want to have your cake and eat it too, in that YOU wish to be the one who initiates your own salvation,
This is a false allegation.
but you also want to attribute your salvation solely to God.
Salvation is all of God, as I have said many times. You know nothing of what I believe, but just make things up as you go along. Slanderous statements seem to be your trademark.
It is one way or the other, can't be both at the same time, and in that you said that YOU initiated it,
I didn't say that; you only think I did. But you have no idea what I believe; you just think you do. You ignorantly post what you think I believe, all the while making false accusations. Do you really think you are acting like a Christian should?
I just commented that you followed a Pelagian theological tenet. Not sure why that is my problem... You either own up to what you are/did or you recant and change to a more biblical position.
You need to recant of your false allegations. If you don't I will report it to others on the administrative staff. This garbage has gone far enough.
I'm not sure why my shame has to enter the picture at this point. Again, I've just commented on what you first wrote. If you, however, wish to be my judge, then we could turn to some additional Scripture that speaks to that issue... :thumbsup:
Your post demonstrate your ignorance and your shame. You have much to both apologize and recant if necessary. I hope you will reconsider.
 

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
Wow. Venom flowing. How unexpected on a thread about sovereign God doing 100% of saving v other ideas.

BTW, we are ALL saved 100% by God's grace. "Salvation is of the Lord" not man. We all know and recognize that, on both sides of the watershed.

Ten page limit thankfully reached. Closing bell.
 
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