How much influence does God have in salvation?

[loDebar]

That's one of the ways He is glorified, I agree.

But he is also glorified when believers see His justice and judgment, because He will come to be glorified for saving us ( 2 Thessalonians 1:10 ), and eventually all will glorify Him, saved and unsaved ( Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:9-11 ).



Anything God does is righteous, though we as men may not see some things as "good".

The physical is not good or bad. The spiritual is moral,

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Pastor_Bob. I would like to ask again if you believe God uses the same amount of influence to bring people to salvation or does He use a different amount of influence on different people? ...I'm trying to understand the freewill position.

In my opinion, the following passage answers both very plainly:
Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (KJV)

God gives every man an opportunity to hear. Human logic can argue away that fact, but the Word of God is clear on it. Likewise, every man has the same responsibility, to "keep" the words that they hear. It is a choice to keep or not to keep.

It makes no sense to me to say God is able to bring everyone He wants to salvation, but that He will withhold the necessary influence that will bring someone to salvation based on His desire we get there of our own freewill, knowing the person is unable to get there of their own freewill.

First, let me thank you for the civil demeanor that you exhibit while asking your questions. Sadly, those engaged in this debate, here and elsewhere, are not always as congenial.

I do not think God withholds any influence whatsoever. I believe He gives light to every man (John 1:9). I believe the grace that brings salvation appears to every man (Titus 2:11). I believe that God does not want anyone to die in an unsaved position (II Peter 3:9).

It is more than God's desire that man exercise their God-given free will; it is God's decree from the foundation of the world that men accept, by faith, the sacrifice of His Son in order to be saved. Election is not unconditional. Grace is not irresistible. And, the atonement is definitely not limited.

We most certainly can get there [attain salvation] by obedience to the Word of God. In fact, that's the only way we can get there.

 

[canadyjd]

In my opinion, the following passage answers both very plainly:
Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (KJV)

God gives every man an opportunity to hear. Human logic can argue away that fact, but the Word of God is clear on it. Likewise, every man has the same responsibility, to "keep" the words that they hear. It is a choice to keep or not to keep.



First, let me thank you for the civil demeanor that you exhibit while asking your questions. Sadly, those engaged in this debate, here and elsewhere, are not always as congenial.

I do not think God withholds any influence whatsoever. I believe He gives light to every man (John 1:9). I believe the grace that brings salvation appears to every man (Titus 2:11). I believe that God does not want anyone to die in an unsaved position (II Peter 3:9).

It is more than God's desire that man exercise their God-given free will; it is God's decree from the foundation of the world that men accept, by faith, the sacrifice of His Son in order to be saved. Election is not unconditional. Grace is not irresistible. And, the atonement is definitely not limited.

We most certainly can get there [attain salvation] by obedience to the Word of God. In fact, that's the only way we can get there.

Thanks for answering directly. We are going to disagree.

I don't see God giving every man an opportunity to hear the Word of God. I wish it were true, but there is no historical record of that happening.

The Titus 2:11 passage appears, imo, to be referring to the slave in the previous verse. "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men". What is the "for" for? It is there to focus back on the instructions to those who were slaves to encourage Godly living according to scripture because salvation has appeared to all men (without distinction...i.e. even slaves, not without exception)

I appreciate the compliment. I have been greatly humbled by the words of James concerning the sin of speech. If we, as Christian's, cannot control our speech in debating the things of God, we bring great shame to the cause of Christ in the world.

I have been guilty of that. I repent and I am determined never to grieve the Spirit again in this manner.

Peace to you

 

[MB]

That really makes no sense to me. You are saying because God loves us so much He refuses to intervene in our lives to bring us to salvation, even though He is able to bring us to salvation, because He wants us to find our way on our own.

I disagree. I believe scripture teaches us God loves us so much He chooses to intervene in our lives. He doesn't leave us trapped/enslaved to sin, but rather frees us from sin and enables us to respond in faith.

Unless God intervenes, we remain trapped in sin.

Thanks for responding

I believe God draws men. I believe God gave us His gospel. I believe God convicts us of our sins and works to convince us of Him Self. If this isn't intervention I don't know what is. Jesus saves there is no doubt in my mind. It isn't man that saves him self. The only thing man does is believe that we might be saved. I want to stress the word might. Truth is we have to believe that Christ is the Son of God. That He died for our sins and that He rose again on the third day of Him being in the grave and is now sitting on the right hand of the Father. If a man does not believe this He is not saved.
Paul wrote;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
MB

 

[loDebar]

Missing from this conversation is the question do all men have souls?, Are all men able to be saved? This has to be asked when considering canadyjd 's question about hearing the word.

 

[MartyF]

Nope, the story is about redemption, He does tell us, though

Nope, it's in the first Chapter. God even repeats himself a couple times. And it's not something one has to read into Bible like Calvinism. God plainly and clearly states it. But you and others on this forum shut your eyes and refuse to read. I say that because I don't think you are illiterate. You're just stubborn.

Yes, there is a redemption story in Bible, but the redemption is not the reason for our creation.

 

[Dave G]

And it's not something one has to read into Bible like Calvinism.

I suppose that depends on one's perspective.

I've said it before in other threads and I will say it again...I read "Calvinism" out of the Bible.
It started out being difficult some years ago, and became easier the more I read Scripture.
Each time I read through the Bible over the years, I believe that the Lord has showed me more and more details about how and why I am saved.

I've never read someone's commentary and then read the Bible with an eye to seeing it like some have...
I honestly started seeing all of it over the course of the last 17 years, and with no help from men or the writings of men.
After the shock of realizing that what I was starting to see in God's word didn't match what so very many of my friends were taught and believed, I figured that I was the subject of one of two things...

I was either a false teacher, or these Scriptures apply:

1 Timothy 4:1-3
2 Timothy 3:1-9
2 Timothy 3:13. <---- I don't see "Calvinists" waxing worse and worse these days and multiplying like rabbits...quite the contrary. In my area alone, there are over 300 "Arminian"-type churches, and only about 3-5 "Calvinist" ones, on a good day. Even the Seventh Day Adventists are multiplying, as well as JW's, Mormons, and all the rest. But not the "Calvinistic Baptists". "Reformed" churches are going the way of the world like so many others, as well as the Presbyterians and Lutherans. But there are only two Baptist churches in my area that teach TULIP. What does this mean? You do the math.
Titus 1:10-11
2 Peter 2:1-22
2 Peter 3:3-7
2 Peter 3:11-17

Like many men in the past, I've come to believe what is known as "TULIP" from Scripture, and that seems to make me a "Calvinist".

The reality of it is that I have joined men like Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, William Carey, Isaac Watts, John Newton, John Bunyan, George Mueller, John Gill, William Tyndale, Rolf Barnard, Henry Mahan, Dennis J. Ward, Augustus Toplady, and many others who have read God's word for themselves and seen the same things.

You are free to call me a liar if you wish, but that doesn't change the fact that I am living proof that your belief about the above statement needs to seriously be re-evaluated, if you're interested in being fully objective about it.

I'm not sure why I feel the need to state all of this, but I thought it should be said just to be clear.

If you like, I can give you a Scriptural answer for any question you have concerning my beliefs...
But I doubt that you'd understand where I'm coming from or believe the Scriptures that I would post...at least the same way I do.




I wish you well, sir, and may God, in His wisdom and grace, grant you many good things.

 

[canadyjd]

Missing from this conversation is the question do all men have souls?, Are all men able to be saved? This has to be asked when considering canadyjd 's question about hearing the word.

I have never heard this question before. Do all men have souls? I believe the "soul" is a word used at times interchangeably with "spirit" At other times it seems to refer to the whole man, i.e. both physical and spiritual. I don't hold to the 3 parts of a man as some do.

Are all men able to be saved? Since I believe all things are possible with God, and God is the one who brings people to salvation, I would answer yes, all men are able to be saved.

 

[loDebar]

Nope, it's in the first Chapter. God even repeats himself a couple times. And it's not something one has to read into Bible like Calvinism. God plainly and clearly states it. But you and others on this forum shut your eyes and refuse to read. I say that because I don't think you are illiterate. You're just stubborn.

Yes, there is a redemption story in Bible, but the redemption is not the reason for our creation.

Why was the physical created then.? You cannot be redeemed unless you are lost.
Why create us all in heaven to begin with?

 

[loDebar]

I have never heard this question before. Do all men have souls? I believe the "soul" is a word used at times interchangeably with "spirit" At other times it seems to refer to the whole man, i.e. both physical and spiritual. I don't hold to the 3 parts of a man as some do.

Are all men able to be saved? Since I believe all things are possible with God, and God is the one who brings people to salvation, I would answer yes, all men are able to be saved.

it goes back to those who have not heard, are they sent to hell ?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

God's warning to Adam was carried out when Adam disobeyed God's command.


Gen 2:17 KJV - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


The resulting death is spiritual death. Since God is spirit, there was no further intercourse between God and Adam in the garden. Because of Adam's sin, all mankind born of flesh are born spiritually dead in trespasses and sin.


Therefore, until the Holy Spirit intervenes in an individual's physical life, bringing about a re-birth resulting in spiritual life, replacing the individual's heart of stone with a heart of flesh, there is no spiritual relationship between God and that individual.


Eze 36:26 KJV - A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


1Pe 1:23 KJV - Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Mat 7:21 KJV - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 KJV - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 KJV - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


These souls claimed to have prophesied in the name of Jesus, cast out devils (exorcism) in the name of Jesus and done many wonderful works in the name of Jesus.

Jesus did not challenge their claims. He never knew them! They were not of His elect.

Freewill, or any other kind of self-will, does not enable a person to become a child of God. Nor will it keep God from having His way with them if they are one of His elect.

God has total control of an individual’s salvation.

Mat 1:21 KJV - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

The Jew rejected Him.

The Jews were the first to receive Him as born-again Christians.

 

[percho]

1. Why did God put us on this Earth?

2. What did Jesus come to save us from?

God put Adam on the earth in order to have a figure in which to be manifested as the Son of God/Son of Man. Rom 4:12 1 John 3:8

From, the death, of which the devil had the power thereof, thereby by doing so he would destroy the devil and his works.Heb 2:14 1 John 3:8

 

[percho]

BTW if we have a part in our salvation, is it God of us who are destroying the works of the devil?

What was that old serpent called, the Devil and Satan doing hanging out around the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

 

[percho]

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2

to open their eyes, to turn from darkness to light, and the authority of the Adversary unto God, for their receiving forgiveness of sins, and a lot among those having been sanctified, by faith, that toward me. Acts 26:18 YLT

When is that same darkness and light first spoken of in the word of God?

Just a rabbit trail thought that might not even be a rabbit trail.

BTW Before the foundation of the world did, virgin, have a purpose? Guess I could start a new thread with that question.

 

[canadyjd]

it goes back to those who have not heard, are they sent to hell ?

Yes. It is clear to me from Roman's that people are condemned already because they have rejected the general revelation of God found in the creation. Only those who come to faith in Jesus are saved from that condemnation.

 

[loDebar]

Yes. It is clear to me from Roman's that people are condemned already because they have rejected the general revelation of God found in the creation. Only those who come to faith in Jesus are saved from that condemnation.

What revelation in creation?

 

[MB]

The Jews were the first to receive Him as born-again Christians.

The disciples accepted Him 12 men out of thousands the rest rejected him. After this the crowd that did accept Him were a mix of Greeks and Jews
MB

 

[Wesley Briggman]

The disciples accepted Him 12 men out of thousands the rest rejected him. After this the crowd that did accept Him were a mix of Greeks and Jews
MB

So?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Thanks for answering directly. We are going to disagree.

Good, godly men have disagreed on his issue for centuries. I'm quite sure we're not going to solve the dilemma here on this thread or any other.

I don't see God giving every man an opportunity to hear the Word of God. I wish it were true, but there is no historical record of that happening.

In my opinion, this truth is presented throughout the Word of God.

The Titus 2:11 passage appears, imo, to be referring to the slave in the previous verse. "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men". What is the "for" for? It is there to focus back on the instructions to those who were slaves to encourage Godly living according to scripture because salvation has appeared to all men (without distinction...i.e. even slaves, not without exception)

Interesting thoughts.

I believe the proper application would be to point back to verse 10. We, as Christians, should act and live in such a way that we "adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things." That is, we live in such a way that makes the message of the Saviour attractive to others. Why is that important? Because
"the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

Not only does that grace bring salvation to the lost, it also gives the Christian what he needs to live a life pleasing to God which is vital to "adorning" the gospel message.

I appreciate the compliment. I have been greatly humbled by the words of James concerning the sin of speech. If we, as Christian's, cannot control our speech in debating the things of God, we bring great shame to the cause of Christ in the world.

I couldn't agree more. I don't want anyone to discount my position based solely on my disposition. We often tell on ourselves when we fail to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit of "gentleness."