How much more influence do you think Luther has been than Jesus?

[Yeshua1]

Not in my life he hasn't.
That place is reserved for the Lord.

On the lives of others who follow the teachings of men?
I would say that Luther probably influenced more people in his day than the Lord did in Israel before He went to the cross.

But across the whole of time, I would say that Jesus Christ has more influence than Martin Luther.
God's children are more than can be numbered ( Revelation 7:9 ).

has Not God used the teachings of a calvin, luther, spurgeon, moody etc, so its really Jesus in ultimate sense!

 

[Yeshua1]

How much more influence do you think Luther has been than Jesus?

Probably a little too much (and this can be said about any such leader). God used him nonetheless.

Aren't all Christian authors really included under Jesus influence anyways?

 

[Alan Gross]

I think that question is completely and totally stupid.

Second Coming still future event!

Yes, any second is The Return of Jesus, The Resurrection of the dead, The Judgement, The New Heavens and The New Earth Created, and The Consummation of the Age.

I do not know of any Bible evidence that any second could NOT be The Return of Jesus, The Resurrection of the dead, The Judgement, The New Heavens and The New Earth Created, and The Consummation of the Age, and I don't believe any evidence exists. .

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, any second is The Return of Jesus, The Resurrection of the dead, The Judgement, The New Heavens and The New Earth Created, and The Consummation of the Age.

I do not know of any Bible evidence that any second could NOT be The Return of Jesus, The Resurrection of the dead, The Judgement, The New Heavens and The New Earth Created, and The Consummation of the Age, and I don't believe any evidence exists. .

You would still see it as still future, correct?

 

[JonC]

Aren't all Christian authors really included under Jesus influence anyways?

And all fail at some point because all are human. We do not know perfectly in this lifetime but see through a glass dimly.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yes, it's still in The Bible.

Spirit Baptism,

"The One World Church" of all believers.

No Authority in Baptism.

ecummenial, Hiaracy, "Home Office,"

PreMillennialism

PostMillennialism

any Millennialism,

Changing 'salvation' to a Covenant of Circumcision, or Baptism,

Anything Catholic, from A to Z,

A 'Command from God to REFORM The Devil's 'Church',

and on and on and on.

Having a 'church leader of head of a church' other than Jesus,

NONE of THOSE THINGS are IN THE BIBLE.

Miraculous Gifts,

Pray to be 'saved',

Repeat after me, to be saved,

Saying everyone who dies 'went to better place',

On and on and on............

....

Why not follow Jesus Christ?

That would have to be Prayed.

"God if you have 'churches', or started one that still exists and it is of Divine Origin, with the Authority from God to Baptise me into one of your churches, could you show me that?"

People pray that.

And if it is a real prayer, God Answers it.

....

 

[Alan Gross]

I think that question is completely and totally stupid.

Are you saying that you believe "Starting Christianity with Luther" is "completely and totally stupid"?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, it's still in The Bible.

Spirit Baptism,

"The One World Church" of all believers.

No Authority in Baptism.

ecummenial, Hiaracy, "Home Office,"

PreMillennialism

PostMillennialism

any Millennialism,

Changing 'salvation' to a Covenant of Circumcision, or Baptism,

Anything Catholic, from A to Z,

A 'Command from God to REFORM The Devil's 'Church',

and on and on and on.

Having a 'church leader of head of a church' other than Jesus,

NONE of THOSE THINGS are IN THE BIBLE.

Miraculous Gifts,

Pray to be 'saved',

Repeat after me, to be saved,

Saying everyone who dies 'went to better place',

On and on and on............

....

Why not follow Jesus Christ?

That would have to be Prayed.

"God if you have 'churches', or started one that still exists and it is of Divine Origin, with the Authority from God to Baptise me into one of your churches, could you show me that?"

People pray that.

And if it is a real prayer, God Answers it.

....

So second coming yet to happen?

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you saying that you believe "Starting Christianity with Luther" is "completely and totally stupid"?

Think it started with Jesus!

 

[Reynolds]

Are you saying that you believe "Starting Christianity with Luther" is "completely and totally stupid"?

Yes, and comparing Luther to Jesus is stupid.

 

[Alan Gross]

You would still see it as still future, correct?

The End of The World is in the future, Yeshua1.

Yes, any second is The Return of Jesus, The Resurrection of the dead, The Judgement, The New Heavens, and The New Earth Created, and The Consummation of the Age.

Jesus' Return is The End.

No one will have an opportunity to be saved, after His Return, which could be any second.

That is what The Bible Teaches, from Genesis to Revelation.

I would like to hear preachers prech it.

 

[Alan Gross]

So second coming yet to happen?

If you are talking about The Divine Interpretation of Matthew 24, do you know the Itemized Index Hermeneutic maker, in verse 3?

 

[Alan Gross]

Yes, and comparing Luther to Jesus is stupid.

Cool. You, sir, are Worshipping God.

 

[Alan Gross]

Think it started with Jesus!

True that.

Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel"

and further back:

1 Peter 1:19,20 …."but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"


with Saving Efficacy:

The Beast from the Sea
…7 "Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 "He who has an ear, let him hear:…"


Planned:

Acts 2:23
"He was delivered up by God's set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross."

 

[Yeshua1]

True that.

Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel"

and further back:

1 Peter 1:19,20 …."but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"


with Saving Efficacy:

The Beast from the Sea
…7 "Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 "He who has an ear, let him hear:…"


Planned:

Acts 2:23
"He was delivered up by God's set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross."

The new Covenant did not start until Calvary!

 

[percho]

Be glad to, but remember...you asked for it, lol

We are not saved by faith we are saved by grace through faith. That might seem like splitting hairs but the fact is that if we are saved by faith then we are saved by something...we do. Secondly, faith is the result of something, right? So where do we receive the knowledge of whatever it is that we place faith in? Simply put, faith has always followed revelation from God. Men and women must first hear God's will in order to believe, have faith, and obey. This is a consistent pattern throughout Scripture. Abraham is said to be declared righteous, that is, justified...after he was told he would have a son of his own loins and that son would be the source for blessing to all nations of the earth. He believed God would allow his presumably barren wife to bear that son. So the point would be this: saving faith can only be accomplished when it is expressed towards God in obedience to His will. It is by grace that God gives Man the revelation necessary for his salvation, no matter what Age/Era we are looking at.

Now, concerning the second part of your question, that there are different dispensations/administration is a Biblical fact (though some refuse to recognize this). No man was under the Covenant of Law prior to Moses, right? But they were from Moses to Christ. So we see two differing Ages and within those two Ages we see Revelation from God differs. Abraham, for example, received a veiled Gospel of Christ concerning his seed, but did not know He would be God manifest in the flesh come to die in his stead. Isaiah had a more detailed, though still veiled knowledge of the Christ as reported in Isaiah 53, yet neither did he know He would be God manifest in the flesh come to die in his stead. The very disciples of Christ walked with Christ and ministered under Him preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and in fact, the Father revealed to them that He, Jesus, was the Christ (that had been prophesied) and that He was the Son of the Living God (Matthew 16:13-17)...but rejected the Gospel of Christ (Matthew 16:20-23). So we see that Revelation was progressive. I just wanted to make that point before I go any further.

Now I will make one point that is incontrovertible: Eternal Salvation is only possible through the death of Christ. That is the heart of the Gospel of Christ, that He came that men might not perish...but have everlasting/eternal life. So if we are going to say that men had eternal life in the Old Testament...where did they get it? Not, as some suppose, because the Lord gave it to them prior to Christ dying. There is a mystical delusion touted as Biblical Doctrine that is taught by some that this is the case. If that is the case, then why does Hebrews teach...


Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


What we can say about the Old Testament Saints is that they were Justified by faith, which most Protestants as well as the Catholics confuse with Eternal Redemption. But note the quote above and understand that the Promise of God was in fact Eternal Redemption. They died not receiving that promise as well numerous others. Hebrews 9-11 makes the point that "Perfection," that is, Completion in regards to Atonement did not take place under the Law. And just to give a few verses to example that...


Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Hebrews 10:10-14 King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


In vv.1-4 we see that the sacrifices of the Law could not make the comer thereunto (the worshiper) perfect/complete (in regards to remission of sin, which is why the offerings were made) because they could not take away sin or the need for further sacrifice. But the Sacrifice of Christ makes us perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins...for ever.

So while the Old Testament Saints were "saved" from an eternal perspective, meaning their eternal destinies were secured because they were justified during their lifetimes, we must not confuse nor equate that to the Redemptive Work of Christ and what that accomplished. And we must not forget that their faith and belief, and yes, their works...were a result of receiving revelation from God in which they could believe, have faith, and perform works (and in that order, lol).

So no, they did not have Eternal Salvation until Christ died in their stead, eternally redeemed them, and liberated them from Hades, the resting place of the dead faithful in past Ages.

I hope this wasn't too long a response, Mikey, and I appreciate the very considerate query.

God bless.

? Saving Faith ?

and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8 YLT

through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:8

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplications and entreaties to him who was able to save him out of death, with strong crying and tears; (and having been heard because of his piety; Heb 5:7 DBY

Was, having become obedient, the obedience of faith, of Jesus the Son of God, toward the Father to save him out of death?

Is it not through that same, obedience of faith, through which we received the Spirit? Being saved out of death? Consider:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away [in death]: for if I go not away [in death], the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart [in death], I will send him unto you.
Gal 3:14 YLT that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. --- Jesus going away in death and the Father raising him out of the dead.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Did, because of the preeminence, Jesus the firstborn out of the dead ones, inherit the grace of Life, eternal? Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[37818]

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away [in death]: for if I go not away [in death], the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart [in death], I will send him unto you.

No. In John 16:7-11 He was speaking of His ascension.

 

[percho]

No. In John 16:7-11 He was speaking of His ascension.

We finely get to use the following verse in proper context. Prophecy and fulfillment.

From Col 1:18 YLT that he might become in all things -- himself -- first,

Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Why?
wherefore, he saith, 'Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' -- and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things -- Eph 4:8-10
Why?
and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name, Phil 2:8,9

Acts 2:32,33 YLT 'This Jesus did God raise up,[out of the dead ones] of which we are all witnesses; at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father [received gifts for men] -- he was shedding forth this,[Gave gifts to men] which now ye see and hear;

From Col 1:18 YLT that he might become in all things -- himself -- first,
BTW Titus 3:5,6 says the same thing as Acts 2:32,33

 

[37818]

We finely get to use the following verse in proper context. Prophecy and fulfillment.

From Col 1:18 YLT that he might become in all things -- himself -- first,

Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Why?
wherefore, he saith, 'Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' -- and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things -- Eph 4:8-10
Why?
and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name, Phil 2:8,9

Acts 2:32,33 YLT 'This Jesus did God raise up,[out of the dead ones] of which we are all witnesses; at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father [received gifts for men] -- he was shedding forth this,[Gave gifts to men] which now ye see and hear;

From Col 1:18 YLT that he might become in all things -- himself -- first,
BTW Titus 3:5,6 says the same thing as Acts 2:32,33

Which is about His resurrection, Romans 1:4, Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:18 - He being the beginning of the New Heaven and Earth to come, Revelation 3:14 - Romans 8:23 - Revelation 21:1 - 1 Corinthians 15:28.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Why compare a lying anti-semite with THE TRUTH?

[Gen 12:3 KJV] 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Martin Luther: "Of Jews and their lies."

"I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that those miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews and who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen."

“First, that their synagogues be burned down…”
“Second, that all their books their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible, be taken from them…”
“Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death…”
“Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing.”

http://scholarship.rollins.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1019&context=mls
Rollins College Rollins Scholarship Online Master of Liberal Studies Theses 2012 Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler ’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation Daphne M. Olsen Rollins College, DOLSEN@Rollins.edu