How Old Is The Earth?

[robycop3]

I'm still not quite understanding the point you're making. Scripture does say 2 of every land animal, and Creationists do not deny the dinosaurs were on the Ark, in fact Behemoth was a postdiluvian sauropod described by Job.

Well, actually, not all creationists believe dinos were on the ark. And we don't know what a behemoth was. Its description doesn't match any dino we know of. And NO recent dino remains have been found; just petrified fossils.

Did you watch the presentation on living fossils? I think that disproves your theory about 99% being gone. The truth is, the vast majority of fossils found still have living ancestors, even right down to the specific species. They've just been given different specie names, which Dr. Werner exposed. You really need to check out his documentary.

It's not MY theory; it's that of many paleontologists & biologists. Just do as I suggested to Church Mouse Guy & Google it.

The other issue is your use of the word species. The Bible, rather, uses the word kinds.

No, the KJV does. I don't use it; I copied from the NKJV, which says "species". That word didn't come into biological use til about the time the KJV was made, so they used 'kinds', from older Bible versions.

Creationists liken this closer to the modern animal category family. In fact the great paleontologist Jack Horner believes that the number of dinosaur species has been greatly exaggerated. There may actually be only 50 basic kinds.

Actually, some 350 different species have been IDd from fossils complete enough to be identified.

God didn't have to preserve thousands of species on the Ark, but just representative kinds. Noah only needed an ancient dog kind to produce all the variations of wild and domestic dogs we have today. In fact, virtually all domestic dogs have come about in the last 300 years.

All dogs are of the same species, "Canis". Any male & female dog can breed if physically possible. But dogs & cats can't breed, nor be artificially inseminated with each other.

And I posted Scripture proving Noah took a pair of EVERY species that existed before the flood with him. He didn't take any dinos because most were already extinct. He took elephants, not woolly mammoths. He took lions & tigers, not saber-tooth cats. But mammoths & saber tooths existed at one time, (However, I won't rule out that the Loch ness monster might be a plesiosaur. I don't think God destroyed much aquatic life in the flood.)

 

[just-want-peace]

I remember years ago (70s I think), I read some comment from one of these far-out groups - wanting to bring about the 16th living style again - commenting on EXTINCT species.
The quote went something like this:
"Because of man's actions (global warming/cooling, rain forest destruction, whatever ) there have been hundreds of animals that we haven't even discovered yet, that are now extinct!"
I've heard many stupid statements from these "groups", but IMHO, this one was the icing on the cake!
I've often wondered if anyone of their peers were cognizant enough to call the writer on such a dumb statement!?

 

[church mouse guy]

Well, actually, not all creationists believe dinos were on the ark. And we don't know what a behemoth was. Its description doesn't match any dino we know of. And NO recent dino remains have been found; just petrified fossils.



It's not MY theory; it's that of many paleontologists & biologists. Just do as I suggested to Church Mouse Guy & Google it.



No, the KJV does. I don't use it; I copied from the NKJV, which says "species". That word didn't come into biological use til about the time the KJV was made, so they used 'kinds', from older Bible versions.



Actually, some 350 different species have been IDd from fossils complete enough to be identified.



All dogs are of the same species, "Canis". Any male & female dog can breed if physically possible. But dogs & cats can't breed, nor be artificially inseminated with each other.

And I posted Scripture proving Noah took a pair of EVERY species that existed before the flood with him. He didn't take any dinos because most were already extinct. He took elephants, not woolly mammoths. He took lions & tigers, not saber-tooth cats. But mammoths & saber tooths existed at one time, (However, I won't rule out that the Loch ness monster might be a plesiosaur. I don't think God destroyed much aquatic life in the flood.)

The verse that you quoted from NKJV reads seeds in KJV Genesis 7:3 (KJV) Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. New American Standard says offspring. I think that makes it clear. Even species in the plural would be the same as seeds or offspring so there is no evolution/deep time point there.

What do you mean that no recent dino remains have been found when you have flesh with blood cells being found? To still be flesh, they would have to be very recent.

The reason that cats and dogs cannot interbreed is that dogs are all one family and include things like wolves and coyotes and dingoes and cats are another family or kind. The point is that Noah only needed one pair of dogs and one pair of cats and all species of dogs came from that one pair and all species of cats came from that one pair of cats.

 

[church mouse guy]

I remember years ago (70s I think), I read some comment from one of these far-out groups - wanting to bring about the 16th living style again - commenting on EXTINCT species.
The quote went something like this:
"Because of man's actions (global warming/cooling, rain forest destruction, whatever ) there have been hundreds of animals that we haven't even discovered yet, that are now extinct!"
I've heard many stupid statements from these "groups", but IMHO, this one was the icing on the cake!
I've often wondered if anyone of their peers were cognizant enough to call the writer on such a dumb statement!?

They don't call each other dumb because they are all looking for an excuse to avoid talking about how young the earth is and how catastrophic Noah's Flood was. Another story like that you posted is the case of the Great Missoula Flood. A body of water about the size of two of Lake Erie from the melting of glaciers at the end of the Ice Age about 3600 years ago when there was a worldwide drought and all of the people on earth went to Egypt for food when Joseph saved all of the people of the world--the ice or earth restraint on that water gave way and the water raced from Montana to the Pacific Ocean about 100 miles per hour and carved a path easily seen to this day as it hugely altered the landscape. One atheist geologist was truthful enough to say that something like this happened but the respectable geologist of his time smothered his work from getting recognition and ignored him. All the while there was another geologist who knew that the cause of this flood was the melted glaciers damned up in Montana. This was about the 1920s. Finally, about 1960 they got aerial photos of the west and there was no denying the path of the flood. However, the atheist put it down to several ice ages and several floods.

Here is a video posted today about fossils. It is excellent:

 

[church mouse guy]

The IGH series did a good job on this subject. This isn't the main segment, but an add-on.

This presentation is also helpful.

Thanks! I will look at these from start to finish later this evening. I think that I have seen the CMI ones; I like Calvin Smith although the other guy is very nice, too. I have not seen the IGH one so I will look at it.

 

[Calminian]

Well, actually, not all creationists believe dinos were on the ark. And we don't know what a behemoth was. Its description doesn't match any dino we know of. And NO recent dino remains have been found; just petrified fossils.

It actually matches only one animal that we know of today. A sauropod. A tail like a cedar, eats grass like an Ox, the largest of all God's creatures. We can get into the text more thoroughly if you like. The evidence is overwhelming.

No, the KJV does. I don't use it; I copied from the NKJV, which says "species". That word didn't come into biological use til about the time the KJV was made, so they used 'kinds', from older Bible versions.

The hebrew word is miyn and is translated kind in just about every translation, including the NKJV. The NKJV never translates miyn as species. The word for seed is zera' , and that is translated species in the NKJV only once (and it appears to be alone in this). miyn is always translated kind in the NKJV. Look how overwhelming the evidence is in the NKJV.

Gen. 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen. 1:21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen. 1:24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen. 6:20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.

Gen. 7:14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.​

I think it's really problematic to build a theory based on one single translation instance in one particular translation. Just look at the evidence from the NKJV on how you should view this word.

There is also a study in creationism you should consider looking into—baraminology—the study of created kinds. bara'--to create, miyn--kinds. Here's a helpful resource page on this topic.

All dogs are of the same species, "Canis". Any male & female dog can breed if physically possible. But dogs & cats can't breed, nor be artificially inseminated with each other.

Do you think I said otherwise? And Dogs can also breed with wolves and coyotes and other wild dogs. There is a Russian bomb sniffing breed that is part Jackal. The Jackal addition to the breed was able to give it some exceptional smelling.

And I posted Scripture proving Noah took a pair of EVERY species that existed...

This is all based on your practices above, taking one translation of the word seed. Even the NKJV, which you cite, translates miyn as kind, 100% of the time.

 

[Calminian]

Thanks! I will look at these from start to finish later this evening. I think that I have seen the CMI ones; I like Calvin Smith although the other guy is very nice, too. I have not seen the IGH one so I will look at it.

I believe the first movie is free on YouTube. Search: Is Genesis History? Here is their website. Is Genesis History? - The Documentary Film with Del Tackett

 

[robycop3]

Of course, fossils form rapidly. They formed rapidly during Noah's Flood

No, they didn't.

Genesis 6:19 is amplified by Genesis 7:14 Genesis 7:14 (KJV) They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Then, if there'd been dinos, there'd still be dinos, except for those that mighta gome extinct as dodos did. But we have modern dodo remains, but no modern dino remains.

Kind does not mean species as you postulate. For example, all cats such as lions, tigers, panthers, leopards, and household cats and bobcats all would be one kind and so only two animals male and female would be needed for the cat kind.

Yes, it DOES. Big cats & small cats have co-existed(but usually not together) a long time. And lions will almost-always kill any other cats in their territory.

The clean animals are the kind used for domestication and they had three pairs and one more for sacrifice. Genesis 8:20 (KJV) And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

No, Noah did not take eggs instead of animals.

You(nor I) know if he did or not.

There is no mention of eggs in Genesis. Dinosaurs did not live so long ago. They were called dragons until the late 19th century. Many remains of dinosaurs have been discovered with blood tissue still in tact. That indicates that they were alive in the last 4,300 years.

Dragons look alike in depictions, be they British, Chinese, or Aztec. One species of dino may have been what we call a dragon. No doubt that SOMETHING was. But most dinos did not resemble dragon depictions. And worldwide, they're described as flying and breathing fire. But no modern animals nor modern remains resembling the known large dinos such as brontosaur or T-rex have been found.

As for the 99% think that you linked to the Discovery channel, they give no details and just make a flat statement and pass it off as truth so we can conclude that they are 100% wrong and that this 99% is probably evolutionists talking unless you can find a link with an exact list of all the animals ever to live and all the animals now extinct.

I suggested you do some Googling to see for yourself. I'm not gonna do your homework for you.

Back to the cat example. Certainly there are some extinct cat species but the cat kind is all over the place. A species is just a variation of a kind.

Unlike dogs, most types of cat will fight to the death if they encounter one another. And again, cats & dogs can't reproduce by each other. Most species of birds can't reproduce by each other, & wouldn't try.

It is a young earth but old earthers are behind in doing their homework in science.

You're still trying to fit the square pegs of conjecture, imagination, & guesswork into the round holes of proven scientific knowledge. Apparently, you won't even Google the 99% extinct thingie as I suggested.

And in your KJV, 'kind' does indeed mean 'species' when referring to animals, such as in Lev. 19:19 where God tells the Israelis not to let their cattle breed with another kind of cattle. (Holsteins shall breed only with other Holsteins, etc.)

Now, once more...

1...2...3...GOOGLE !

 

[robycop3]

It actually matches only one animal that we know of today. A sauropod. A tail like a cedar, eats grass like an Ox, the largest of all God's creatures. We can get into the text more thoroughly if you like. The evidence is overwhelming.



The hebrew word is miyn and is translated kind in just about every translation, including the NKJV. The NKJV never translates miyn as species. The word for seed is zera' , and that is translated species in the NKJV only once (and it appears to be alone in this). miyn is always translated kind in the NKJV. Look how overwhelming the evidence is in the NKJV.

Gen. 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen. 1:21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen. 1:24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen. 6:20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.

Gen. 7:14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.​

I think it's really problematic to build a theory based on one single translation instance in one particular translation. Just look at the evidence from the NKJV on how you should view this word.

There is also a study in creationism you should consider looking into—baraminology—the study of created kinds. bara'--to create, miyn--kinds. Here's a helpful resource page on this topic.



Do you think I said otherwise? And Dogs can also breed with wolves and coyotes and other wild dogs. There is a Russian bomb sniffing breed that is part Jackal. The Jackal was able to give the breed an extra special sense of smell.



This is all based on your practices above, taking one translation of the word seed. Even the NKJV, which you cite, translates miyn as kind, 100% of the time.

And kind = species in Scripture. Read Lev. 19:19.

And you're avoiding the point that dinos existed on previous arrangements of the earth's surface. You just don't wanna admit the obvious.

 

[Calminian]

They don't call each other dumb because they are all looking for an excuse to avoid talking about how young the earth is and how catastrophic Noah's Flood was. Another story like that you posted is the case of the Great Missoula Flood. A body of water about the size of two of Lake Erie from the melting of glaciers at the end of the Ice Age about 3600 years ago when there was a worldwide drought and all of the people on earth went to Egypt for food when Joseph saved all of the people of the world--the ice or earth restraint on that water gave way and the water raced from Montana to the Pacific Ocean about 100 miles per hour and carved a path easily seen to this day as it hugely altered the landscape. One atheist geologist was truthful enough to say that something like this happened but the respectable geologist of his time smothered his work from getting recognition and ignored him. All the while there was another geologist who knew that the cause of this flood was the melted glaciers damned up in Montana. This was about the 1920s. Finally, about 1960 they got aerial photos of the west and there was no denying the path of the flood. However, the atheist put it down to several ice ages and several floods.

Here is a video posted today about fossils. It is excellent:

The soft tissue findings in dino bones has broken this debate wide open. I'm still fascinating how evolutionists try to explain this way.

 

[Calminian]

And kind = species in Scripture. Read Lev. 19:19.

And you're avoiding the point that dinos existed on previous arrangements of the earth's surface. You just don't wanna admit the obvious.

I guess I just don't see it in Scripture, nor a space in the creation account to fit millions of years. If I saw even the slightest room, I'd still be a gapper, as I once was. It's not like I haven't looked carefully at this interpretation.

I'm also amazed how easy creation science makes it to take Genesis literally, as is, with no additional stories about a flood before Noah's.

 

[Calminian]

And kind = species in Scripture. Read Lev. 19:19.....

This passage does not say kinds (miyn)=species. It's not the same hebrew word. It is merely saying don't crossbreed cattle. And this is thousands of years after the flood, when speciation would have been more pronounced, and there was possibly an unhealthy breed out there to avoid. There was obviously a good healthy breed of cattle that God wanted to keep pure.

 

[church mouse guy]

No, they didn't.



Then, if there'd been dinos, there'd still be dinos, except for those that mighta gome extinct as dodos did. But we have modern dodo remains, but no modern dino remains.



Yes, it DOES. Big cats & small cats have co-existed(but usually not together) a long time. And lions will almost-always kill any other cats in their territory.

The clean animals are the kind used for domestication and they had three pairs and one more for sacrifice. Genesis 8:20 (KJV) And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.



You(nor I) know if he did or not.



Dragons look alike in depictions, be they British, Chinese, or Aztec. One species of dino may have been what we call a dragon. No doubt that SOMETHING was. But most dinos did not resemble dragon depictions. And worldwide, they're described as flying and breathing fire. But no modern animals nor modern remains resembling the known large dinos such as brontosaur or T-rex have been found.



I suggested you do some Googling to see for yourself. I'm not gonna do your homework for you.




Unlike dogs, most types of cat will fight to the death if they encounter one another. And again, cats & dogs can't reproduce by each other. Most species of birds can't reproduce by each other, & wouldn't try.



You're still trying to fit the square pegs of conjecture, imagination, & guesswork into the round holes of proven scientific knowledge. Apparently, you won't even Google the 99% extinct thingie as I suggested.

And in your KJV, 'kind' does indeed mean 'species' when referring to animals, such as in Lev. 19:19 where God tells the Israelis not to let their cattle breed with another kind of cattle. (Holsteins shall breed only with other Holsteins, etc.)

Now, once more...

1...2...3...GOOGLE !

You started the 99% stuff so it is your burden of proof, not mine. No one has given a species count to prove it so you are just citing some unsubstantiated evolution stuff that you can't prove because there is no evidence.

The word eggs does not appear in Genesis. God sent the animals to Noah.

 

[church mouse guy]

I believe the first movie is free on YouTube. Search: Is Genesis History? Here is their website. Is Genesis History? - The Documentary Film with Del Tackett

Oh, I have watched it several times. I am very interested in the Tower of Babel. I get alerts when they post something new on YouTube.

 

[Calminian]

....Unlike dogs, most types of cat will fight to the death if they encounter one another. And again, cats & dogs can't reproduce by each other. Most species of birds can't reproduce by each other, & wouldn't try.....

Yet we have Ligers and Tions. Amazing animals much larger than their parents.

It is true, there are domestic hybrids, and wild hybrids. Some bears hybridize in the wild under certain conditions—polar bears and brown bears, I believe. The coywolf is found in the wild.

Other animals species will only breed in captivity. Others, are too far removed from one another to hybridize, but have common species in-between they can hybrid with. I believe Brown bears can hybridize with Grizzlies and Polars, but Grizzlies and Polars cannot.

There are other case where we suspect animals to be in the same family, but the common breeder is missing or extinct, so we can't fully prove it. Foxes and wolves would be an example.

 

[Calminian]

Oh, I have watched it several times. I am very interested in the Tower of Babel. I get alerts when they post something new on YouTube.

Love Del Tackett. Very thankful he's taken this cause up.

 

[church mouse guy]

Love Del Tackett. Very thankful he's taken this cause up.

He filmed in the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago, where I visited once. Would like to go again for many years but too afraid.

 

[timtofly]

There can be no doubt that humanity before the Flood, breed reptile species like we do cats and dogs. That humans lost their dominion over the animals after the Flood is evident. That some species could not make it after the Flood is evident as well.

What is denied is that the earth was divided after the Flood and not prior to the Flood. All species deposited into layers may have not been homogenous before the Flood, because some humans may have had other interest than in breeding animals. After the Flood and during the break up of the continents it is obvious that animal life would move out and advance faster than humanity did. Natural selection evident. Especially since God had to force humans to spread out with the change in linguistics.

Humanity prior to the Flood were not ignorant cave men. They were sons of God in God's full image. Their knowledge would have surpassed anything we have discovered or ever will discover. It was Noah's offspring who had to learn things all over again. Why did knowledge only increase in the last 300 years and was kept from us for thousands of years? Or did some knowledge just fade out over time, and was considered non essential to normal society. Humans tend to destroy that which is not relevant to their current cultural norms.

Humans had 2500 years before the Flood to fill, kill, breed, build, destroy, artificially and naturally, in ways we can only dream of. We today are probably discovering, what they would call their museums. The Flood itself burying their life's work, and the aftermath changing the continents, forming mountain ranges, and creating Ice ages. Not over millions of years but constantly over hundreds of years. One of the reasons why humanity did not spread out was the fear of being isolated from one another. God had to isolate them linguistically.

 

[Calminian]

There can be no doubt that humanity before the Flood, breed reptile species like we do cats and dogs. That humans lost their dominion over the animals after the Flood is evident. That some species could not make it after the Flood is evident as well.

What is denied is that the earth was divided after the Flood and not prior to the Flood. All species deposited into layers may have not been homogenous before the Flood, because some humans may have had other interest than in breeding animals. After the Flood and during the break up of the continents it is obvious that animal life would move out and advance faster than humanity did. Natural selection evident. Especially since God had to force humans to spread out with the change in linguistics.

Humanity prior to the Flood were not ignorant cave men. They were sons of God in God's full image. Their knowledge would have surpassed anything we have discovered or ever will discover. It was Noah's offspring who had to learn things all over again. Why did knowledge only increase in the last 300 years and was kept from us for thousands of years? Or did some knowledge just fade out over time, and was considered non essential to normal society. Humans tend to destroy that which is not relevant to their current cultural norms.

Humans had 2500 years before the Flood to fill, kill, breed, build, destroy, artificially and naturally, in ways we can only dream of. We today are probably discovering, what they would call their museums. The Flood itself burying their life's work, and the aftermath changing the continents, forming mountain ranges, and creating Ice ages. Not over millions of years but constantly over hundreds of years. One of the reasons why humanity did not spread out was the fear of being isolated from one another. God had to isolate them linguistically.

Interesting speculations. I suppose the possibilities are endless, regarding this era. I think we can safely speculate that dinosaurs thrived in that world. My theory, as to why, is that hunting wasn't allowed by God before the flood, so man couldn't hunt them to extinction. Once that was sanctioned post-flood, they stood no chance. Everyone wanted to be a dragon-slayer.

Wonder if you're like me. If time-travel existed, you'd go there in a heartbeat, with some serious weapons and tools of course maybe a Humvee.

 

[timtofly]

Interesting speculations. I suppose the possibilities are endless, regarding this era. I think we can safely speculate that dinosaurs thrived in that world. My theory, as to why, is that hunting wasn't allowed by God before the flood, so man couldn't hunt them to extinction. Once that was sanctioned post-flood, they stood no chance. Everyone wanted to be a dragon-slayer.

Wonder if you're like me. If time-travel existed, you'd go there in a heartbeat (with some serious weapons and tools of course).

I would definitely want a glorified body. Who says time travel does not exist? Sometimes our desires are not God’s desires. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:23

“Everything is permitted,” you say? Maybe, but not everything is helpful. “Everything is permitted?” Maybe, but not everything is edifying.

There are a lot of things we may never know about life before the Flood. When we do know, such knowledge may not even matter. Perhaps having knowledge is as sufficient as experiencing it first hand?