How Romans 11 debunks OSAS

[Aaron]

There is no text saying "If you love less than infinite God you are sinning" in all of scripture -- no not one.

The only way you can say that is to say that Christ is not God.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ does not say "if you love less then I do you have sinned".

In Romans 8:5-8 Christ through Paul argues that ONLY the lost person is in a condition where they cannot keep God's Law.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God[/b].

In 1Cor 2 at the end of the chapter Paul says "WE HAVE the mind of Christ". This is the same kind of statement as Christ saying that we are to follow His example in loving others. Neither of them argue that we must BE infinite God or be sent to hell to pay for the sin of not BEING infinite God. Christ is our example as we see in 1John 2 - "the one who SAYS He knows Christ ought to walk as Christ walked" - but those who then try to measure against the level of infinite God (the level of Christ) are taking the text too far.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There is a thread for "What is the NT Law" that applies to this idea of can it be kept and what is it.

So getting back to the point of this thread (since we will soon hit our 30 page limit) -- this post is waiting for a response.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1516875&postcount=183

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Matthew 22:35-40 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

On these two commandments all ten commandments are summarized.
Can any man keep the law?
The answer is in these two commandments? Can any man keep these two commandments? The answer is no. It is not possible. Let us take the first for an example:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Do you (anyone) love God with all your heart?
All your heart means that there is not even one part of your heart reserved for anything else or any other person. All your heart is devoted to Christ all the time 24/7. It means you never sin, for once you do your heart is not loving God. It means you never have an evil thought or word enter into your mind or posted on this board, for if that happens then you are not loving God will all your heart. Every second of every minute, of every hour of every day of all of your life, your heart--all of it must be totally given to the Lord your God in complete devotion. Are you doing this?

Are you loving God with all your soul? The soul here means "life." Have you given your life to the Lord? Are you loving him with your life--every aspect of your life, in everything that you do? Is your whole life devoted to Him--to be willing to live for Him? Or willing to die for Him? Whatever He commands, at His service; are you willing?

Are you loving God with all your mind. The mind is the intellect. To love the Lord: His Word, His revelation, His decisions, more than we do our own decisions, our own will, our own ideas.
Both Mark and Luke add to love God with all our strength--that is with all our physical strength, our bodies, whatever they can endure. It does not matter whatever the hardship it may cause us, whatever the sacrifice it may be, God will give the strength. Are we willing to allow our bodies to be used and even abused for the Lord's sake?

Do you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength?
--I don't know of anyone who can sincerely and honestly say that they do.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 22:35-40 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

On these two commandments all ten commandments are summarized.
Can any man keep the law?
The answer is in these two commandments? Can any man keep these two commandments? The answer is no. It is not possible.

Paul agrees with you that there IS a group that CANNOT submit to God's Law as you say --

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God[/b].

It means you never have an evil thought or word enter into your mind or posted on this board, for if that happens then you are not loving God will all your heart.

An evil thought that is your own "will" your own "desire" to do evil - as found in your sinful nature - a temptation where you are victorious - is not sin.

In 1Cor 10 Paul makes this clear "NO TEMPTATION has overtaken you but such as is common to man and GOD IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able..."

so also in 2Cor 10:4 "Taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ".

But as I said before - this is another topic - a thread already started and still very active as it turns out.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=64485

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Paul agrees with you that there IS a group that CANNOT submit to God's Law as you say --

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God[/b].

An evil thought that is your own "will" your own "desire" to do evil - as found in your sinful nature - a temptation where you are victorious - is not sin.

You are human and not God. Every person has had evil thoughts and given into them. No exceptions. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. No man can keep the law.

In 1Cor 10 Paul makes this clear "NO TEMPTATION has overtaken you but such as is common to man and GOD IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able..."

So, God makes away of escape. Man does not always take that way every time. He is man, and not God. He sins. He falls short of the glory of God. The Bible does not contradict itself.

so also in 2Cor 10:4 "Taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ".

And do you take EVERY thought captive to obedience of Jesus Christ; every thought Bob? Are you perfect? Do you know any person aside from Christ that is?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Do you (anyone) love God with all your heart?
All your heart means that there is not even one part of your heart reserved for anything else or any other person. All your heart is devoted to Christ all the time 24/7. It means you never sin, for once you do your heart is not loving God. It means you never have an evil thought or word enter into your mind or posted on this board, for if that happens then you are not loving God will all your heart. Every second of every minute, of every hour of every day of all of your life, your heart--all of it must be totally given to the Lord your God in complete devotion. Are you doing this?

Are you loving God with all your soul? The soul here means "life." Have you given your life to the Lord? Are you loving him with your life--every aspect of your life, in everything that you do? Is your whole life devoted to Him--to be willing to live for Him? Or willing to die for Him? Whatever He commands, at His service; are you willing?

Are you loving God with all your mind. The mind is the intellect. To love the Lord: His Word, His revelation, His decisions, more than we do our own decisions, our own will, our own ideas.

HP: I would like to know one thing DHK. Could you be wrong or once again is it either 'in accordance to DHK’s interpretation or God is a liar'????

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Le 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Bob, don’t you know that if you so much as lift your little finger on the Sabbath you are in violation of God’s law? Sound familiar???

 

[BobRyan]

yes HP good point - that sounds familiar. :laugh:

It is in line witih the "every breath you take is sin" idea that denies the Romans 8:5-8 truth of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In 1Cor 10 Paul makes this clear "NO TEMPTATION has overtaken you but such as is common to man and GOD IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able..."

notice this applies the "Faithfulness of God" to the problem of the "weakness of sinful man" such that it is down to the level "that YOU may be able to endure it but will WITH the temptation provide the way of ESCAPE"

So, God makes away of escape. Man does not always take that way every time. He is man, and not God. He sins. He falls short of the glory of God. The Bible does not contradict itself.

When the saved saint chooses of his own free will to deny what God has provided - and to enter into the Romans 6 slavery to sin -- they have chosen sin of their own free will and not be cause they HAD to in some way.

God's word does not say "you do not have free will to chose SIN NO MATTER WHAT" but God's word DOES say you are the slave of the one you CHOOSE to obey.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Paul agrees with you that there IS a group that CANNOT submit to God's Law as you say --

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God[/b].

An evil thought that is your own "will" your own "desire" to do evil - as found in your sinful nature - a temptation where you are victorious - is not sin.

You are human and not God. Every person has had evil thoughts and given into them. No exceptions. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. No man can keep the law.

1. Temptation is not sin.
2. The text does not say that only God is able to submit to the law of God - but not the saints. The text says that only the LOST are in the "must sin" condition.
3. 2Cor 10:4 we are "taking every THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ"

 

[BobRyan]

Since the group seems to need to avoid the actual subject of this thread - perhaps some help.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Here we see the case of believing gentiles explicitly being discussed in "the details" given by Paul in scripture.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steaver
Well, if you read the entire chapter 11 you cannot ignore the fact that it is certainly speaking about the Jews as a nation and not as individuals. However, I do agree that the phrase "you stand by faith" is speaking of professing (key) Christians.

Do lost - yet "professing" gentiles actually "STAND by faith"? Are they truly wild branches that have been grafted into the body of Christ - when natural branches have been removed from the body of Christ?

In other words - do you agree with the text of scripture here?

Are they actually "standing" or "have they YET to stand by faith" in your view?

If they are NOT standing by faith - then are to they to PERSEVERE in NOT standing by faith? Or should they abandon their "NOT standing by faith" position as fast as possible?

What say you?

 

[Aaron]

Christ does not say "if you love less then I do you have sinned".

And yet His commandment is to love as He has loved.

As you can't bring yourself to simply submit to the straight forward maxims of the Scripture, I'll cut to the chase.

You do not love as He has loved, and therefore do not fulfill the law.

All your wresting of Romans does not change the fact that you, BobRyan, fall short of Christ's commandment every second of every day. Your inability to see this leaves you in a peril for your soul. Are you sure your hope and faith is in Christ alone, or is it in your alleged ability to keep the law?

All my good works I do out of a debt of love, but I in can in no way let myself be fooled into thinking that even my best works are not tainted by sin and are somehow acceptable to Him. Do not be deceived yourself.

Before the throne of God above
I have a strong and perfect plea,
A great High Priest whose name is Love,
Who ever lives and pleads for me.

My name is graven on his hands.
My name is written on his heart.
I know that while in Heav'n he stands
No tongue can bid me thence depart.

 

[BobRyan]

Phil 2 "Let this mind be in you that was ALSO in Christ"
1Cor 2 "WE HAVE been given the mind of Christ"

The extremes that those who argue for "non-stop sinning" based on not loving others as infinite God loves others - would have to then take 1Cor 2 as a case of Paul "lying" or as Paul claiming that each saint is infinite God.

Well as it turns out - there is the option of simply taking the Bible seriously instead of trying to excuse sin.

In the case of the non-stop sin idea - James 2 says that to break one of God's commands is to break all. Thus those who claim they are in non-stop sinning based on not being "infinite God" in their ability to "love others" are really claiming to constantly be violating all of God's commands -- which is the Romans 8:5-8 position of the lost.

No way around that one so far.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

HP: I would like to know one thing DHK. Could you be wrong or once again is it either 'in accordance to DHK’s interpretation or God is a liar'????

God stated forth the two greatest commandments. He didn't say anyone could keep them. In the parable of the rich young man he clearly demonstrated that he couldn't keep them, though the rich man lied and said "all these have I kept from my youth up." Mark 10). The sin of the rich young man was covetousness. He coveted his riches more than he coveted Christ.

Show me a man aside from Christ that has never broken the law; never sinned. Why can't you do that?

 

[DHK]

notice this applies the "Faithfulness of God" to the problem of the "weakness of sinful man" such that it is down to the level "that YOU may be able to endure it but will WITH the temptation provide the way of ESCAPE"

Then show me a man who has been able to escape all temptations (testings or trials--more accurately put). Is there? No. The way of escape is there. But more often than not, man chooses the way of least resistance. He sins.
Man is a sinner. He sins. He can't help it. He has a sin nature. He is responsible for his sin, but he still sins. Read about the struggle Paul had with his sin in Romans 7. Paul admitted that more often than not he sinned.

 

[DHK]

1. Temptation is not sin.
2. The text does not say that only God is able to submit to the law of God - but not the saints. The text says that only the LOST are in the "must sin" condition.
3. 2Cor 10:4 we are "taking every THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ"

But you don't take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. Why lie about it? Why sound like you are perfect and sinless on this board? Are you perfect? Have you reached a state of sinless perfection? Have you? Come out and say it if you have? I have never yet met a man who is perfect and sinless. Are you one of them, Bob?

 

[BobRyan]

Posted by BobRyan
notice this applies the "Faithfulness of God" to the problem of the "weakness of sinful man" such that it is down to the level "that YOU may be able to endure it but will WITH the temptation provide the way of ESCAPE"

Then show me a man who has been able to escape all temptations (testings or trials--more accurately put).

Your argument is with God - Take it up with Him -- I am not the author of 1Cor 10.

Man is a sinner. He sins. He can't help it.

Well Paul appears to agree with you in that regard - if you are talking about the lost.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God[/b].

Or is this simply another place where you differ with Paul?

When the saved saint chooses of his own free will to deny what God has provided - and to enter into the Romans 6 slavery to sin -- they have chosen sin of their own free will and not be cause they HAD to in some way.

God's word does not say "you do not have free will to chose SIN NO MATTER WHAT" but God's word DOES say you are the slave of the one you CHOOSE to obey.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Here we see the case of believing gentiles explicitly being discussed in "the details" given by Paul in scripture.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Originally Posted by steaver
Well, if you read the entire chapter 11 you cannot ignore the fact that it is certainly speaking about the Jews as a nation and not as individuals. However, I do agree that the phrase "you stand by faith" is speaking of professing (key) Christians.

Do lost - yet "professing" gentiles actually "STAND by faith"? Are they truly wild branches that have been grafted into the body of Christ - when natural branches have been removed from the body of Christ?

In other words - do you agree with the text of scripture here?

Are they actually "standing" or "have they YET to stand by faith" in your view?

If they are NOT standing by faith - then are to they to PERSEVERE in NOT standing by faith? Or should they abandon their "NOT standing by faith" position as fast as possible?

What say you?

(still waiting for someone to take up the challenge here)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Do lost - yet "professing" gentiles actually "STAND by faith"?

No

Are they truly wild branches that have been grafted into the body of Christ - when natural branches have been removed from the body of Christ?

They have been truly grafted in if they have truly have faith in God. Key word is "if". Scripture plays this out in many places.

Jhn 8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;


Notice how many followed Jesus and it was said that they "believed on Him", but as time continued on these proved that they had not believed as necessary for salvation (with the heart). As the scripture goes on these who it was said had believed on Him were picking up stones to kill Him.

Col 1:23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Jo 2:24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

James also tells us about dead faith. This is a man "saying" he has faith but there is no evidence of faith. True faith shows by good works and perserverance in Jesus Christ.

Are they actually "standing" or "have they YET to stand by faith" in your view?

I believe this is where one can get themselves into doctrinal error. We have to read the scriptures with an understanding that although it is written to "believers" it is still a witness and a call to the lost and this includes those who are just following the religion without a sure relationship with Jesus Christ. So really the only answer for this question is...

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Hebrews writer also said;

Hbr 3:12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

If they are NOT standing by faith - then are to they to PERSEVERE in NOT standing by faith? Or should they abandon their "NOT standing by faith" position as fast as possible?

What they should do is #1 stop boasting against the branches. #2;

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

One thing I hope you will observe in this dialogue is that the bottom line we are speaking about here for salvation in Romans 11 is "faith". There is no speak about commandment keeping or good works having anything to do with salvation.

:jesus: