How To Be Saved

[kyredneck]

Can a human choose not to believe and thus thwart the will of God in all other aspects of salvation?

That's a good question and I don't know how anyone can really answer that.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Ro 3

"I don't know" which is really a copout

"I don't know" is an answer, and it should be used a whoooole lot more on this board rather than the bloviating hot air that several spout.

 

[Van]

"Since you" addresses the poster and not the position. Thus fallacious argumentation and a forum rule violation.

"never answered the question" is a material false statement, thus fallacious argumentation using a strawman.

"When did God give you" addresses the poster and not the position. Thus fallacious argumentation and a forum rule violation.

How to be saved:

1) Recognize your need for salvation from the eternal punishment of God. The dupes of Satan will say you are unable to recognize you are a wretched sinner, heading for Hades and Gehenna. Just as the wicked say, "there is no God" they also say, "there is no Hades and Gehenna."

2) Once you recognize your condition, a sinner heading for eternal punishment, you need to recognize you are unable by your own actions to alter that awful outcome. The dupes of Satan will say if you are good enough, God will be compelled to save you.

3) At this point, you need to take the action of the people described in John 6:28-29.

John 6:28-29 NET
So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires - to believe in the one whom he sent."​

4) God sent our Lord and Savior, Jesus as His "Lamb of God."

5) In order to be our Lord (Boss) we need to be committed to keeping His commands and serving Him with our lives.

6) In order to be our Savior, we need to believe that He died to provide the means of our salvation, and that He arose from the dead demonstrating He is the Son of God, and to fully rely upon Christ for our salvation, which is us "calling on His name."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Whom God chooses to make alive, God chooses to give faith and belief.
"But God..."
God doesn't "need" anything from you. He's not powerless until you make your own decision. If God did not choose to make you alive, you would never, ever, believe in God or have faith in the shed blood of Christ. You, like all dead sinners, would consider God's word to be foolishness.

It's too bad that you and Sliverhair do not understand how much God did for you when God chose to save you. It's like you are desirous to slap God in the face and tell Him that He can't dare to save you without your consent.

I don’t know about slapping God in the face but they think that the creature has decisions to make regarding salvation and if they want to be in hell or heaven. This type of salvation gives rise to name & claim it style churches, semi pelegan and human centered vs God centered. Any wonder these types criticize Doctrines of Grace theology?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Ro 3



"I don't know" is an answer, and it should be used a whoooole lot more on this board rather than the bloviating hot air that several spout.

My sainted mother always taught us that, “You either know or you don’t know.. and if you don’t know then you best get some knowledge so you don’t make mistakes. Never guess.”Words of wisdom! Thanks Ma.

 

[kyredneck]

It's only a copout ( I like that word, man) if you refuse to give the answer you know because it's uncomfortable.

Then I (and no doubt very many others) have chosen to 'copout' hundreds of times rather than cast their pearls out there to be ridiculed.

There are plenty of scriptures that seem to indicate God giving you a choice and a command to repent. I don't know how you can get around them.

AUDIENCE RELEVANCE is the simple answer. To WHOM are the scriptures addressed?

 

[tyndale1946]

Then I (and no doubt very many others) have chosen to 'copout' hundreds of times rather than cast their pearls out there to be ridiculed.

AUDIENCE RELEVANCE is the simple answer. To WHOM are the scriptures addressed?

I've said it before and I'll say it again... God is in charge of saving anyone!... There is no tandem Eternal Salvation, taught in scripture... Its Gods way or no way!... Brother Glen

Matthew 19: 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

God is in the Eternal Salvation business, we are not!

 

[AustinC]

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Ro 3



"I don't know" is an answer, and it should be used a whoooole lot more on this board rather than the bloviating hot air that several spout.

In this case, it's a copout.

It's the equivalent of saying "I don't know if Jesus is Sovereign King or just a bystander.

 

[DaveXR650]

In this case, it's a copout.

It's the equivalent of saying "I don't know if Jesus is Sovereign King or just a bystander.

I think most people understood my original statement. You can't seem to understand and I know you hate it when I bring in other sources but let me try once more.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Jesus
"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life". Jesus
"He that believeth on Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Jesus

So the question comes up, why did some not believe?
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and some were not chosen". Dave That's not what it says is it?
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil". Jesus
Let's get another opinion.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, but he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John the Baptist

So the answer is, it ALL depends on whether a person believes or not. Or else Jesus and John were wrong. I have a developed theology and an opinion as to how this comes about and that theology puts a high value on the work of the Holy Spirit and has a low view of man's natural spiritual ability. Most people on here get that and some even respect where I'm coming from even if they don't agree. But I also respect the fact that those verses above, directly from our Lord, put a high premium on belief. You can't cut that out of scripture no matter what your theology is.
So to your original question which was this:

"Can a human choose not to believe and thus thwart the will of God in all other aspects of salvation?"

The nuanced answer, taking into account my theology and other verses in scripture has already been given. For you my answer is of course "Yes", or else Jesus has to be wrong in the verses quoted above. The biggest problem with Calvinistic theology is that it seems to me that is unsuited to many folks mind set. That's why I say if you are one of those folks then just reject it and go on. For all I know, you may be right and I'm wrong. But I have also discovered that this holds true for some who identify as Calvinists also. So you end up overstating certain aspects of Calvinism and could actually do great damage in theological discussion.

 

[kyredneck]

So the question comes up, why did some not believe?

8 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21

Note that the brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten. Those NOT bitten had no need to go to the brazen serpent.

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for the Savior.

 

[DaveXR650]

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for the Savior.

I have no problem with that statement at all. But that is using theology and deductions from other scriptures which is fine. But look what you just did. You corrected Jesus himself. He explicitly said that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. That is the condemnation. At the absolute most basic level you have to admit that it is a matter of belief. Jesus did not see fit to mention predestination, election or the total inability of man. But he did see fit to talk about belief and the implication in those verses is that of a choice that a person makes. I answered this question in the right way in post 120. Austin was unable to admit that the correct answer to the question is that God's absolute sovereignty and man's true responsibility are both in operation. My mind cannot completely figure that out. But I will not go against the direct teaching of Jesus himself for the sake of a theological system.

 

[AustinC]

I have no problem with that statement at all. But that is using theology and deductions from other scriptures which is fine. But look what you just did. You corrected Jesus himself. He explicitly said that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. That is the condemnation. At the absolute most basic level you have to admit that it is a matter of belief. Jesus did not see fit to mention predestination, election or the total inability of man. But he did see fit to talk about belief and the implication in those verses is that of a choice that a person makes. I answered this question in the right way in post 120. Austin was unable to admit that the correct answer to the question is that God's absolute sovereignty and man's true responsibility are both in operation. My mind cannot completely figure that out. But I will not go against the direct teaching of Jesus himself for the sake of a theological system.

You have twisted the question and have failed to acknowledge that man cannot go against the will of God in regard to their election. They could not refuse God's election and thus not be saved.

If they could, they would be, at minimum, equally as powerful as God.

 

[tyndale1946]

You have twisted the question and have failed to acknowledge that man cannot go against the will of God in regard to their election. They could not refuse God's election and thus not be saved.

If they could, they would be, at minimum, equally as powerful as God.

Jeremiah 31: 3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Here is what John Gill has to say on this passage... Brother Glen

Jeremiah 31:3 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary

 

[Salty]

six hour warning
This will be closed no sooner than 1800 hrs GMT, 2 pm EDT / 11 am PDT

 

[DaveXR650]

You have twisted the question and have failed to acknowledge that man cannot go against the will of God in regard to their election. They could not refuse God's election and thus not be saved.

If they could, they would be, at minimum, equally as powerful as God.

No. Your question involved your tendency to turn everything into a discussion of sovereignty. I answered several times that there is a tension between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I pointed out that many theologians who put a high value on God's sovereignty hold the same view. You blew away everyone from Owen to Spurgeon as a "cop out".

So left with that view, I pointed out that those who could not or would not accept this logical tension could, without any hurt to themselves, take the simplest and most basic approach and simply believe on Jesus. The title of this thread was "How to Be Saved". This is the quote from the original post:

Cry out to Him today!!!

“...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”
Acts 16:31.

The fact is that it is completely correct, without any need for modification or clarification. It should bother you that you would feel a need to attack clear scripture like you do. Anyone who comes to Christ as savior believes he is sovereign. They know that they are lost, are going to die, are bound for Hell, and can do NOTHING about it and only Jesus can save them. Are you going to tell me that such people do not have a sufficient understanding of God's sovereignty because they don't share your metaphysical views on causation and determinism? How are they claiming to be equally as powerful as God?

 

[AustinC]

No. Your question involved your tendency to turn everything into a discussion of sovereignty. I answered several times that there is a tension between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. I pointed out that many theologians who put a high value on God's sovereignty hold the same view. You blew away everyone from Owen to Spurgeon as a "cop out".

So left with that view, I pointed out that those who could not or would not accept this logical tension could, without any hurt to themselves, take the simplest and most basic approach and simply believe on Jesus. The title of this thread was "How to Be Saved". This is the quote from the original post:

The fact is that it is completely correct, without any need for modification or clarification. It should bother you that you would feel a need to attack clear scripture like you do. Anyone who comes to Christ as savior believes he is sovereign. They know that they are lost, are going to die, are bound for Hell, and can do NOTHING about it and only Jesus can save them. Are you going to tell me that such people do not have a sufficient understanding of God's sovereignty because they don't share your metaphysical views on causation and determinism? How are they claiming to be equally as powerful as God?

The only tension is in the human heart. Our selfish hearts struggle to accept being subjects in the Kingdom.

When God has chosen His children from before the foundation of the world, there is no scenario in which His child will not, ever, experience the quickening of their spirit to life in Christ Jesus. The child of God will not remain in rebellion forever. They will respond in faith and belief.

Finally, I cannot recall a time when you actually quoted scripture. Have you?

 

[kyredneck]

But look what you just did. You corrected Jesus himself.

I did no such thing. Shame on you. You've been hanging with @AustinC too much.

He explicitly said that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. That is the condemnation.

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`Jn 3

Do you not see the difference between the two? God has 'wrought within' one, but not the other.

the correct answer to the question is that God's absolute sovereignty and man's true responsibility are both in operation.

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

It's good that you're finding your way in the theological scheme of things.

 

[DaveXR650]

Finally, I cannot recall a time when you actually quoted scripture. Have you?

I know it was a long time ago but post 128.

 

[MrW]

I know it was a long time ago but post 128.

It's obvious he did not bother to read post #128. So he is talking past you.

 

[DaveXR650]

The fact is "This is the condemnation, that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil". J.C Ryle said that "The Bible never says that sinners miss heaven because they are not Elect, but because they 'neglect the great salvation', and because they will not repent and believe." I like theology as much as anyone, and have great respect for Calvinist theology and Puritan writings. But I have never understood the feeling of some, that seem to believe that the third chapter of John needs to be messed with and that it cannot simply be read as stated, but that we need to be "helped" to understand some nuanced theological implication either of the scope of the offer or of the need for the person himself to believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

I did no such thing. Shame on you. You've been hanging with @AustinC too much.

I didn't mean to offend you but look at the verse in the original post Acts 16:31. This is exactly the same thing as in those verses in chapter 3 of John. Now you have Acts written by Luke, quoting Paul, saying the same thing found in John's writing who was quoting Jesus. The book of Acts, the writings of John, and the writings of Paul cover much of the scripture from where we get our Calvinistic theology. Yet Jesus didn't see fit to go there when telling people to believe. Neither did Paul when he talked to the Philippian jailer. Luke didn't seem to need to correct Paul's quote or add to the explanation as to how to take into account the absolute sovereignty of God when telling someone how to be saved. So why in the world do we do that on here?