How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

I agree each of our positions need to be "fought" or defended with Scripture. Name calling and personal attacks are against BB rules for all involved.

 

What's that I hear? The crying of ME advocates? "Be nice to us! Stop holding us accountable for our false doctrine!" Irony, thy name is ME.

 

I have absolutely no problem with you disagreeing with me and "showing" how and why you disagree with me.

But we're talking about a WHOLE different ball game when someone lies about what you believe and what you don't believe. Deliberately misrepresents you so that it will somehow scare people away from even looking into the matter for themselves and purposefully making fun of someone.

And while it is against the rules these posters are continually allowed to do such. And I don't care that they are breaking the rules. My whole point in pointing out such behavior is that this whole idea that saved people feel bad for their sins is just silly and one just need stick around this board for a while to see that that statement is not true, and that repentance is not an absolute.

These folks continue in such action and show no signs whatsoever that they are sorry for their actions or have any intentions of stopping.

Therefore it was just used to once again disprove "their theology," as incorrect and unScriptural.

 

You have some major extra biblical statements that evidently Amy agrees with also. I will list a few:
1. You say we must deal with Heaven first. Why did Jesus say: "Seek ye FIRST the KINGDOM of GOD?"
2. If you're taking this stance from a spiritual regeneration before soulical theology can be brought up, I would agree. BUT We are not seeking"heaven" when we become Born from Above but simply eternal life. I have yet to see a verse that teaches us to ever seek "Heaven" first.
3. Jesus DID NOT say "I go to prepare a mansion for you." He said "I go to prepare a PLACE for you." The previous Words of Christ say: "In my Father's house ARE many mansions." The mansions were already there. There is not one verse of scripture to even hint the you nor I will recieve a mansion. The "place" that Jesus went to prepare is revealed in Revelations AFTER the Millenial Reign of Christ. John, in the timeline, did not see it until the Millenial was concluded and the Great White Throne of Judgement has closed court, and all tears are wiped away. I'm not going up to this "Heaven" which God calls the New Jerusalem. It is coming down out of Heaven to me. Amen!
4. You say the JSOC and the Marriage Supper take place in Heaven. There is no scripture to back this up. If you have the scripture to back up this statement, please give us the refrence.

You say one thing I agree with. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord. Where in this scripture do you see the New Jerusalem with a Street of Gold, Jasper walls, etc., etc? For you to say that the Lord is now reigning in this new city is to say that Satan has access to this new city and I definitely do not believe that Satan has access to the "New City." According to Job, Satan has access to the Lord. I believe as long as Satan continues to wear the crown as Prince of the air, runling the earth until the Lord's return, he will continue to have access to the Lord. This will not happen when we ENTER the New City, AFTER the Millenial Reign.

I pray this will help you to see that we are not crazy. We just take the Bible at It's Word. Too many have made doctrines out of fables and songs. For instance "I've got a mansion, Just over the Hilltor." and "I'll Meet you by the River."

Neither song has any biblical evidence in it. Let's stick to the Book. The Bible and not the Song Book!
God Bless

 

I don't want to steal this thread but want DHK to know when the proper thread comes up I will be asking you to produce a post of mine where I said I never sinned.

 

1. As I said, you must reach heaven before you reach the kingdom.
The Gospel of Matthew was written primarily to Jews presenting Christ as Messiah, the King. In this gospel the "kingdom" is used more often than any other. There are more OT references than any other. For us to seek first the Kingdom of God, obviously, is to seek first the things of God.
You fail to look at the context in two different ways. The overall context is: the sermon on the mount, which is all about the Kingdom. Read all three chapters: 5-7, and you will have a better idea of what the kingdom is all about. Don't just isolate one verse out of context.
Secondly, the immediate context. Looik at it:

Matthew 6:31-34 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

What is he talking about. Don't worry about earthly things. Your Father will take care of you. Set your eyes on heavenly things, (the kingdom of God) and his righteousness. This is in opposition to the things of this world. Read things in context. You missed the context on both accounts.

I am not sure what you are talking about when you say "soulical theology. Is this your own term? I previously said you must talk about heaven before you talk about the kingdom in the context of John 3:3. Obviously when one is saved they will go to heaven before they will reach the kingdom.

Eternal life is but a gift. When I was saved the Holy Spirit came and dwelled within me by the power of Jesus Christ. From that time onward I have had a relationship with Jesus Christ which "grows sweeter as the days go by." I am looking forward to seeing Christ. I am looking forward to being with Him. He has promised that he is coming soon; coming quickly; coming at such a time when we know not and least expect it. When he comes I will go back to heaven with Him. I will be raptured. I look forward to that event. It is the first resurrection. I already have eternal have. I am housed in an earthly body awaiting my celestial body. In heaven I will receive my celestial body, or more accurately at the time of my resurrection. The Scriptures that deal with eternal life deal with it in the present not the future. It is something we already possess.
"He that hath the son, hath life; he that hath not the son hath not life."
There are dozens of Scripture which speak of "being with Christ." But Christ is in heaven now, at the right hand of the Father. He stood to receive Stephen into heaven, as he was martyred for Christ.

Prove that through Scripture.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
--the place grammatically refers back to the subject, the mansions which he first referred. He would not have brought "mansions' into the subject unless he was going to speak of them. Use common sense here. The only way you can misinterpret this is to read your own pre-conceived ideas into this passage--as you are doing.
--Granted the word "mansions" is simply a word for "dwelling place." Darby translates the verse this way:

John 14:2 In my Father's house there are many abodes; were it not so, I had told you: for I go to prepare you a place;

But the context remains the same. Jesus was about to die, be buried, rise from the dead, and then ascend into heaven. This promise was to his disciples for them to be with him in heaven. That is the context. There is no kingdom in sight here.

This is all based on your imagination and not Scripture. You have nothing to back it up. Look at your unbiblical and extra-biblical statements.
"John in the timeline did not see it until the Millenial was concluded and the GWT of judgement has closed court and all tears are wiped away."
--How do you know what John knew; what John thought; what John understood; etc. This is the height of arrogance, and the beginnings of gnosticism. You are saying "I have a higher knowledge--I can see into John's mind and understand what he understood. I have knowledge that no one else has." You are treading on dangerous heresy.
--"John did not see it" I can't believe you would actually say that! John writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and you say: John you don't understand what you are writing but I do! What arrogance!
--And then because you infer that John is ignorant, you bring in your heretical ME doctrine. Now you can introduce the MK, the GWT, and other events. Why? Because John didn't see it. He was ignorant. But you could see it!

In Acts 1, the angels say to the disciples:

Acts 1:11 who also said, Men of Galilee, why do ye stand looking into heaven? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven.
--Jesus went up into heaven, and will come back from heaven in the same way. He will come back at the time of the rapture described in

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then *we*, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord.

In the Book of Revelation, after the rapture takes place the Antichrist will be revealed and Tribulation will start, a period lasting seven years. This period is described between Rev.6-19.
The JSOC is described as a heavenly scene in 1Cor.3:11-15.
The marrriage supper of the Lamb is described in Rev.19:7-9
Immediately after that we see Christ coming as King, with the saints of God, to the earth to conquer his enemies and to rescue Israel. At this time he will set up his Kingdom. This event is described from Rev.19:11 to the end of the chapter.

I never said those things.

True enough. I never said anything differently.
During the MK, Satan will be thrown into a bottomless pit and there be bound for a thousand years. But afterward he will find enough unsaved to gather an army and make one last attempt to try and overthrow Christ, at which time God will "consume" him with fire. Then the GWT judgement will take place. Rev.20:10 says that he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire where the beast and the false prophet are and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. After the GWT Christ shall make a new heaven and a new earth.

I take the Bible at its word also and come to some conclusions which are quite opposite of yours.

 

JJ --- I was thinking about this as I went to sleep last night. Because there is "chastening," sanctification is going on whether we "cooperate" or not.

Yes, it may be retarded at times. But think about this -- in the OT, death was administered for sin by the Jews themselves. In the NT, chastening and death are administered by God upon His children. And the end of live and the JSOC brings complete sanctification, JJ, per Phil 3:21, etal.

Basically what you would be saying, therefore, is that the one who doesn't cooperate was not saved at all. How can you NOT cooperate with God who lives in you?? That's like saying I'm going to live with a 600 pound gorilla but not cooperate with him! :laugh: And know what? Ive tried it, too (as I'm sure all of us have). You just cannot hold Him off for long if you really are saved!

I think you will like my analogy a little better -- what is the "punishment" for "wood, hay, and stubble?" What are "wood, hay, and stubble?" Isn't it the Bema where we, the church, appear?

Look at 1Cor 3:9-15 "I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon [and all on Christ]. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 ... 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble [truth is, we ALL build with ALL these to some extent it says here]; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire[; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

But what did the verse say? That we ALL build with gold AND wood to some extent. That we ALL deserve the fire (you would say "hell"). But no -- we ALL are saved to a greater or lessed extent by fire "on that spot!" You good attitudes, beliefs and desires will be rewarded, your bad "flamed!" What were the possibilities again? 1) reward or 2) loss [of reward] but saved. That's the only 2. No "hell." No "cast into outer darkness." Is this or isn't it the judgment of the believing church?? If not, then who is it??

You misread scripture, JJ. Or more likely, you let someone do you homework for you. :tear:

The picture of the rapture and 7 years in heaven is of a MARRIAGE that begins in Mt 25:1-13. We go up there and the initial "judgment" is to prepare us for 7 years of CONSUMMATION of the marriage (according to Jewish tradition of 7 days). Then we come back postrib for presentation to the "guests" as what is called the wedding feast, Mt 22, Rev 19:7-9 just like Cana where Jesus turned the water of the spirit into the wine of joy!

JJ, there's no scriptural place for what you speculate in regards to the judgment of church believers. You and you comrades are telling the story of Israel and the Gentiles postrib. Yes, fire is involved -- cleansing, sterilizing fire not fire of eternal destruction.

And you know another thing the Spirit told me? We church are not the "wheat and tares." We are "mustard seed" and it is very obvious to Bereans, who have the Holy Spirit, to detect which are the "seeds" (gospel from which we, the branches, grew) and which are the "birds" (false doctrines). We have the "mind of Christ," JJ! For heaven's sake listen, to your Father and your brothers and sisters.

skypair

skypair

 

He does. He obeys on account of love when he obeys in order to not displease you. I'm sure he does that -- and so do believers.

You just haven't found it. Believer's baptism is dead-to-love transformation. We don't do it because it is convenient to us or boasting or any such thing (I would hope). We do it to please the Father.

The Christian life, ministry, IS "fightings within, fears without," 2Cor 7:5 -- absolutely! Right now I'd be fearful I was adding "stubble" to someone else's foundation if I were you.

.....

JJ, I want to second what npeterely said (highly unusual for me! :laugh ---- 1John 4:18 -- "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

skypair

 

You use the wrong judgment seat in demonstration though, Lacy. It's NOT Mt 25:46 -- it IS 1Cor 3:9-15.

IOW, you don't want to be building on the foundation of Christ and the apostles "wood, hay, and stubble!"

[/quote]Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.[/quote] This is a whole other fear -- fear of not obtaining to the "abundant [earthly] life, AKA Christ-life.

Context says fear not false teachers but fear God --- as in "Who's your Daddy."

It's a fearful thing for "willful sinners" in this life, Heb 10:29 -- "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise." 10:36

We are trying to "pull you out," Lacy, but you're so light anymore! :laugh:

skypair

 

This needed to be said, JJ. It "makes merchandise" of our dearly beloved (2Pet 2:3) and is not worthy of the bad impression it gives.

skypair

 

Yes, but Jude 1:21-22 says "And of some have compassion, ...: 23 And others save with fear..." Nowhere does saving include intimidation or sarcasm (don't worry -- I'm preaching to myself even if you aren't listening :tear: )

skypair

 

This is where you are in serious error, Acc.

1) Jesus said He would come and TAKE US THERE, not bring it to us (John 14:3)!

2) Perhaps you will not get a "mansion," only a "place," but for sure it is in heaven!

3) The account you refer to in Rev 21:2 (NJ coming down "to us") is when ALL the saints have been glorified in heaven. Then THEY come down from God who has prepared the New Earth!

You've finally offered up this "storyline" (thank you) but it is so backwards that it is no wonder you can't make sense of the judgment seats!

Now you're talkin'! OK, good. Now you are serious. DHK has some gook comments on 1Cor 3 but that doesn't really place the JSOC in heaven without some previous understanding.

2Cor 5:2 -- we have a GLORIFIED BODY ("house in heaven") which we "desire to be clothed".

Principle: Via either rapture or resurrection, ALL are given a new bodies for the purpose of reward/judgment. It happens

a) post-rapture/pretrib for the church saints in heaven,

b) postrib on earth for the saints called "all Israel," or

c) postMK at the GWT for the lost (you ask what body are those in the MK judged in? Their MK bodies since Christ has a continuing judgment seat there.).

Trying to rule. True. But Rev 12 and Dan 12 speak of a war in heaven wherein he is cast out of heaven with his angels midtrib. And as I said, we don't wait until postMK to enter NJ.

skypair

 

So if sanctification is a guarantee whether I believe or not, then why am I commanded to do certain things when it doesn't matter if I do them or not.

There is no way that you can Scripturally say that sanctification is a one-way street.

 

We are sanctified by the indwelling Spirit, JJ. Not by things we choose to do. Even the OT saints must be born again/resurrected by the Spirit in order to be sanctified.

I was listening to David Jeremiah this morning and what you seem to say you are doing (many do) is CONFORMING your behavior to the "norm" or expectation. Then you backfill it by saying you obey the letter -- but the NT says obey the Spirit.

Calvinists do this too only many of them are CONFORMED but never CONVERTED.

skypair

 

Your last couple of statements are kind of comical in light of your stance on Calvinism. Your view on sanctification is very calvinistic in that man has no choice in the matter. You say the Spirit sanctifies him whether he wants to be or not.

However there is just no Scriptural support for that. If that were so then Bible would not command me to walk in the Spirit. See walking in the Spirit is a choice. And there are consequences for both. If I don't walk in the Spirit, but instead walk in the flesh I am NOT being sanctified nor WILL I be sanctified.

If everyone was automatically sanctified again there would be no need for the JSOC as everyone would be the same and everyone would receive the same thing.

But sanctification is NOT a guarantee so we must be judged in that area. This judgment is based on works and works are based in the area of sanctification.

 

Much of what you say here is true, and your arguments for practical holiness are commendable, however without a person being a presently redeemed, blood bought child of God, these works are like a person hanging fruit on a dead tree trying to bring it to life. Biblical christianity has a live tree bearing fruit through it's sustenance on the Son.


BGTF

 

No, if you don't walk in the Spirit, you get "chastised" until you "do or die." Only time you won't get "chastised"/corrected is if you don't belong to Him, right? Think about how many times God has "spanked" you for disobedience, JJ. YOU changed, didn't you? YOU got sanctified, didn't you? The scripture is Phil 1:6 and Phil 3:21. He "subdues ALL THINGS to Himself" by the power that Paul confidently says "He will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [which IS the Bema]!"

No one is completely sanctified, JJ. I think you know that.

Thing is, God's got to completely sanctify EVERYONE because EVERYONE has sin either unconfessed or unknown. Are YOU going to hell for what's left to be sanctified in YOU, JJ??

Like I said before -- we ALL build with gold and with wood... We ALL are going to get the fire but it is right there at the Bema. And it is for your wrong thoughts, not acts of sin in the flesh. What good would burning already glorified, perfected flesh be anyway, JJ??

When are you going to stop fighting me??raying:

skypair

 

That is absolutely correct, but "christian" has its roots in "Christ-like" behavior. If you are not Christ-like in your behavior you are not a "Christian." However just because your actions are not Christ-like does not mean you are spiritually dead and bond for the lake of fire for the endless ages.