How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

[Lacy Evans]

"Romans 8:1 seems to be the theme verse for the EIREITAD believers but it is curious that they never quote the whole verse..."

I DID quote the whole verse. There is a separate forum available for KJVO threads.

"No Doctrine is affected! No Doctrine is affected! BRAAAWWWK!"

 

[Hope of Glory]

Romans 8:1 seems to be the theme verse for the EIREITAD believers but it is curious that they never quote the whole verse...

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." - Romans 8:1​

But, don't you know that if you're really and truly really saved, then you'll walk after the spirit. This is a warning to make sure that you really, really believed, because you won't slip if you did. (This message was brought to you by the makers of tongue-in-cheek brands.)

Edited to add: In seriousness, why do people tend to overlook the word "now" in this passage? Vincent says: "Connecting with Rom_7:25. Being freed through Jesus Christ, there is therefore no condemnation now."

We are not under the law. Neither are we above the law.

Why would we automatically assume that "condemn" means sent to the lake of fire forever and ever? Let's see what the BDAG has to say about this word. Pay especially close attention to the beginning where the sense of the word is given. I'll highlight it for you:

κατάκριμα, ατος, τό (In this and the cognates that follow the use of the term ‘condemnation’ does not denote merely a pronouncement of guilt [s. κρίνω 5], but the adjudication of punishment.) judicial pronouncement upon a guilty person, condemnation, punishment, penalty (s. three next entries; freq. of fines: Dionys. Hal. 6, 61 κατακριμάτων ἀφέσεις; POxy 298, 4 [I a.d.]; CPR I, 1, 15ff; 188, 14f; Mitt-Wilck. I/2, 28, 12; Dssm., NB 92f [BS 264f]) οὐδὲν κ. τοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ there is no death-sentence for those who are in Christ Jesus Ro 8:1. The context (esp. 7:24) qualifies the nature of the judicial sentence. εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς κ. (sc. ἐγένετο) (led) to condemnation or doom for all humanity 5:18. In wordplay w. κρίμα vs. 16.—FDanker in Gingrich Festschr. 105 (Ro).—DELG s.v. κρίνω. M-M. EDNT. TW.​

http://www.baptistboard.com/#_ftn15 freq. freq. = frequent(ly)

POxy POxy = Oxyrhynchus Papyri—List 4

CPR CPR = Corpus Papyrorum Raineri—List 4

Mitt-Wilck. Mitt-Wilck. = LMitteis/UWilcken, Grundzüge und Chrestomathie der Papyruskunde—Lists 4, 6

Dssm. Dssm. = ADeissmann, various works—List 6

BS BS , s. Dssm., BS—List 6

esp. esp. = especially

sc. sc. = scilicet (one may understand, supply)

Gingrich Festschr. Gingrich Festschr. = Festschrift to Honor F. Wilbur Gingrich—List 6

DELG DELG = PChantraine, Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue grecque—List 6

s.v. s.v. = sub voce (under the word, look up the word)

M-M M-M = JMoulton/GMilligan, Vocabulary of Greek Testament—Lists 4, 6

EDNT EDNT = Exegetical Dictionary of the NT—List 6

TW TW = Theologisches Wörterbuch zum NT; tr. GBromiley, Theological Dictionary of the NT—List 6

http://www.baptistboard.com/#_ftnref15Arndt, William ; Danker, Frederick W. ; Bauer, Walter: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 2000, S. 518

 

[TCGreek]

But, don't you know that if you're really and truly really saved, then you'll walk after the spirit. This is a warning to make sure that you really, really believed, because you won't slip if you did. (This message was brought to you by the makers of tongue-in-cheek brands.)

Edited to add: In seriousness, why do people tend to overlook the word "now" in this passage? Vincent says: "Connecting with Rom_7:25. Being freed through Jesus Christ, there is therefore no condemnation now."

We are not under the law. Neither are we above the law.

Why would we automatically assume that "condemn" means sent to the lake of fire forever and ever? Let's see what the BDAG has to say about this word. Pay especially close attention to the beginning where the sense of the word is given. I'll highlight it for you:

κατάκριμα, ατος, τό (In this and the cognates that follow the use of the term ‘condemnation’ does not denote merely a pronouncement of guilt [s. κρίνω 5], but the adjudication of punishment.) judicial pronouncement upon a guilty person, condemnation, punishment, penalty (s. three next entries; freq. of fines: Dionys. Hal. 6, 61 κατακριμάτων ἀφέσεις; POxy 298, 4 [I a.d.]; CPR I, 1, 15ff; 188, 14f; Mitt-Wilck. I/2, 28, 12; Dssm., NB 92f [BS 264f]) οὐδὲν κ. τοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ there is no death-sentence for those who are in Christ Jesus Ro 8:1. The context (esp. 7:24) qualifies the nature of the judicial sentence. εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς κ. (sc. ἐγένετο) (led) to condemnation or doom for all humanity 5:18. In wordplay w. κρίμα vs. 16.—FDanker in Gingrich Festschr. 105 (Ro).—DELG s.v. κρίνω. M-M. EDNT. TW.​

http://www.baptistboard.com/#_ftn15 freq. freq. = frequent(ly)

POxy POxy = Oxyrhynchus Papyri—List 4

CPR CPR = Corpus Papyrorum Raineri—List 4

Mitt-Wilck. Mitt-Wilck. = LMitteis/UWilcken, Grundzüge und Chrestomathie der Papyruskunde—Lists 4, 6

Dssm. Dssm. = ADeissmann, various works—List 6

BS BS , s. Dssm., BS—List 6

esp. esp. = especially

sc. sc. = scilicet (one may understand, supply)

Gingrich Festschr. Gingrich Festschr. = Festschrift to Honor F. Wilbur Gingrich—List 6

DELG DELG = PChantraine, Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue grecque—List 6

s.v. s.v. = sub voce (under the word, look up the word)

M-M M-M = JMoulton/GMilligan, Vocabulary of Greek Testament—Lists 4, 6

EDNT EDNT = Exegetical Dictionary of the NT—List 6

TW TW = Theologisches Wörterbuch zum NT; tr. GBromiley, Theological Dictionary of the NT—List 6

http://www.baptistboard.com/#_ftnref15Arndt, William ; Danker, Frederick W. ; Bauer, Walter: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 2000, S. 518

And why shouldn't we take katakrima as pointing eventually to the Lake of fire?

 

[James_Newman]

And why shouldn't we take katakrima as pointing eventually to the Lake of fire?

John 8:10
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

Were those men going to throw this lady in the lake of fire?

 

[Accountable]

Believers are chastened and disciplined in this life, not after we die. It serves no purpose (as well as it's not Biblical) to be chastened while we're on our way to heaven. We are chastened in this life as a means to conform us to the image of Christ.

So your plan is to bypass the Kingdom and go straight to heaven? Are you bypassing the Judgement Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper? All just because we are "on our way to Heaven."
This is our point. Everyone points to Heaven as the goal. Heaven is not the goal. We are not to seek Heaven but "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God."
This discussion deals not with Heaven.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Sounds like fun! What medium of art?

skypair

Sorry, I missed this.

Stained glass.

 

[DHK]

So your plan is to bypass the Kingdom and go straight to heaven? Are you bypassing the Judgement Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper? All just because we are "on our way to Heaven."
This is our point. Everyone points to Heaven as the goal. Heaven is not the goal. We are not to seek Heaven but "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God."
This discussion deals not with Heaven.

I believer you are missing the boat. You cannot deal with the kingdom without dealing with heaven first. You cannot enter into the kingdom without entering into heaven first. Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and he wasn't talking about the kingdom, but rather heaven. In John 14, Jesus said, I go to prepare a mansion for you..., and he was not talking about the kingdom but rather heaven. The JSOC and the marriage supper of the Lamb take place in heaven before the Kingdom Age even start. You can't talk about the Kingdom without talking about heaven first. If you don't make it to heaven there is no possible way that you will make it to the kingdom. And that is precisely why your position is so ludicrous.

 

[Amy.G]

So your plan is to bypass the Kingdom and go straight to heaven? Are you bypassing the Judgement Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper? All just because we are "on our way to Heaven."
This is our point. Everyone points to Heaven as the goal. Heaven is not the goal. We are not to seek Heaven but "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God."
This discussion deals not with Heaven.

DHK beat me to it.
What he said.

 

[TCGreek]

John 8:10
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

Were those men going to throw this lady in the lake of fire?

I think we were commenting on Rom 8:1.

 

[Hope of Glory]

If you don't make it to heaven there is no possible way that you will make it to the kingdom.

You seem to be implying that someone has said otherwise?

Who has said such a thing?

 

[Hope of Glory]

And why shouldn't we take katakrima as pointing eventually to the Lake of fire?

Why would you assume that it is pointing to the lake of fire forever and ever, especially when it's a passage that's delivered to saved individuals, and it's talking about works?

 

[TCGreek]

Why would you assume that it is pointing to the lake of fire forever and ever, especially when it's a passage that's delivered to saved individuals, and it's talking about works?

1. Granted that it's Romans 8:1 in view, Paul says that for those in Christ there is now no condemnation.

2. This condemnation can only point to eventual separation from God for all eternity in the Lake of fire.

3. A true believer doesn't have to worry about a temporal abode in some outerdarkness.

4. The believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I know of no layover somewhere.

 

[Hope of Glory]

3. A true believer doesn't have to worry about a temporal abode in some outerdarkness.

Well, there's no such thing as "true" believer anywhere in the Bible: Either you believe, or you don't.

But, only saved individuals have to worry about outer darkness at the Judgment Seat. The unsaved won't be there, and when they are judged at the Great White Throne, they will be cast into the lake of fire forever and ever.

 

[TCGreek]

Well, there's no such thing as "true" believer anywhere in the Bible: Either you believe, or you don't.

But, only saved individuals have to worry about outer darkness at the Judgment Seat. The unsaved won't be there, and when they are judged at the Great White Throne, they will be cast into the lake of fire forever and ever.

1. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that it is a "worry" for the saved to appear before the judgment seat of Christ. I'm assuming that you're referring to 2 Cor 5:10.

2. I know of only one judgment called by different names.

 

[TCGreek]

1. Besides, all whom the Lord has justified He will glorify. I see nothing conditional about this.

2. "Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns?" (Rom 8:33, 34a).

3. Whatever 2 Cor 5:10 means it certainly does not frustrate the precious promises of these verses in Rom 8.

 

[belvedere]

No one has answered my question for me yet. It's post #34 on page 4 of this thread.

Thanks!
Jeff

 

[npetreley]

1Therefore there is now no (A)condemnation for those who are (B)in (C)Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1 (NASB)

Just my opinion, but 1000 years in hell sounds like condemnation!

Here's a question: Chastisement by God is intended to get us on the right track, and bring us closer to Him. Why would a saved person, once gone from this fallen earth, need chastisement? In eternity with God, we will have perfect bodies and be continually in God's presence. We certainly don't deserve anything that good, but because of God's mercy and grace, and Jesus' shed blood, we will receive it.

The whole ME thing just puts way too much emphasis on man's righteousness for me. It constantly brings to mind Isaiah 64:6 6For all of us have become like one who is (A)unclean,
And all our (B)righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us (C)wither like a leaf,
And our (D)iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

I don't see how man's righteousness, being like a filthy garment, will gain him anything.

Jeff

I don't see a question here, but for what it's worth, I agree.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

So the wrath of God is being characterized as chastisement. And I just want to get this straight.

It is being asserted that believers will got to hell is that correct?

 

[DHK]

So the wrath of God is being characterized as chastisement. And I just want to get this straight.

It is being asserted that believers will got to hell is that correct?

Naaah, just a Baptist Purgatory for a thousand years.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Did I not see gehenna being used in reference to believers?