How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

[J. Jump]

No, if you don't walk in the Spirit, you get "chastised" until you "do or die."

EXACTLY! That's my WHOLE POINT! And if you "die" having not been sanctified, you are not going to be positively rewarded for that with a smaller piece of paradise pie. That is a Satanic lie straight from the father of lies himself!

Think about how many times God has "spanked" you for disobedience, JJ. YOU changed, didn't you? YOU got sanctified, didn't you?

Couple of things wrong with this statement. First of all it's building theology on experience. Just because that may be so for my life doesn't mean it is so for everyone. And even in my life that may be true of me in the past, but there is no guarantee that it will continue to be true out into the future. I hope and pray that it is, but it's not a guarantee.

No one is completely sanctified, JJ. I think you know that.

Well not in this life. That won't happen until the JSOC for some. Later for others.

Are YOU going to hell for what's left to be sanctified in YOU, JJ??

That will be determined at the JSOC.

not acts of sin in the flesh

Better check again, because it's not just your thoughts that are on trial. I think even people that don't agree with me are going to disagree with that statement.

When are you going to stop fighting me??

I didn't realize I was fighting you. And I'm not going to stop disagreeing with you until you can either prove your point 100% in Scripture or you agree with what I'm saying. Neither of those have happened yet . :wavey:

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

That is absolutely correct, but "christian" has its roots in "Christ-like" behavior. If you are not Christ-like in your behavior you are not a "Christian." However just because your actions are not Christ-like does not mean you are spiritually dead and bond for the lake of fire for the endless ages.

A person who just trusts Christ today may not be as Christ-like as someone who has spent an entire life walking with the Lord, and yet both and everyone in between, are saved.

How Christ-like are you? Can you give us some practical examples?


BGTF

 

[Hope of Glory]

A person who just trusts Christ today may not be as Christ-like as someone who has spent an entire life walking with the Lord, and yet both and everyone in between, are saved.

And they may abandon being Christ-like at all, yet they are still saved.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

And they may abandon being Christ-like at all, yet they are still saved.

Like Solomon it is possible, but it is not the recommended way to go about it.


BGTF

 

[J. Jump]

Like Solomon it is possible, but it is not the recommended way to go about it.

EXACTLY! And no one is advocating that turning away from Christ be done, but people need to know that there are REAL consequences that they will face for their disobedience and unfaithfulness should they choose that path. And these consequences reach past this lifetime.

To teach that a saved person can life any ole way they please and then still enjoy the same inheritance and reward as those that are faithful, obedient and overcoming is just unBiblical. That's not going to happen.

 

[Amy.G]

EXACTLY! And no one is advocating that turning away from Christ be done, but people need to know that there are REAL consequences that they will face for their disobedience and unfaithfulness should they choose that path. And these consequences reach past this lifetime.

To teach that a saved person can life any ole way they please and then still enjoy the same inheritance and reward as those that are faithful, obedient and overcoming is just unBiblical. That's not going to happen.

Who are all these horrible Christians that do all these terribe sins all the time, who are unrepentant, unfaithful, and even stop believing?

They sound like the unsaved, unbelieving heathen to me.

 

[Amy.G]

EXACTLY! And no one is advocating that turning away from Christ be done, but people need to know that there are REAL consequences that they will face for their disobedience and unfaithfulness should they choose that path. And these consequences reach past this lifetime.

To teach that a saved person can life any ole way they please and then still enjoy the same inheritance and reward as those that are faithful, obedient and overcoming is just unBiblical. That's not going to happen.

Any person that has no regard whatsoever for their sin, doesn't feel the conviction of the Spirit, believes they can live any ol way and get by with it, is NOT a Christian and does NOT have the Spirit of God.

 

[J. Jump]

Who are all these horrible Christians that do all these terribe sins all the time, who are unrepentant, unfaithful, and even stop believing?

They sound like the unsaved, unbelieving heathen to me.

Amy what "you think" of these people doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what Scripture says about them. And it says if they believe they ARE SAVED no matter what else occurs in their life whether positive or negative.

And again you just need look at some of the posters posting in these threads to see some unrepentant folks. Do you want to call those folks unsaved? I'm not willing to do that.

 

[J. Jump]

Any person that has no regard whatsoever for their sin, doesn't feel the conviction of the Spirit, believes they can live any ol way and get by with it, is NOT a Christian and does NOT have the Spirit of God.

Amy you can't be reading the same threads I'm reading and say this with any kind of honesty. I've already addressed this in far more detail than I wanted to when I did it the first time. But would have to have your head stuck pretty far down in the sand to say this and read through some of these recent posts and what has been said and the manner in which it has been said. None of which has been amended for.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

To teach that a saved person can life any ole way they please and then still enjoy the same inheritance and reward as those that are faithful, obedient and overcoming is just unBiblical. That's not going to happen.

Agreed in principle.

BGTF

 

[Amy.G]

Amy what "you think" of these people doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what Scripture says about them. And it says if they believe they ARE SAVED no matter what else occurs in their life whether positive or negative.

And again you just need look at some of the posters posting in these threads to see some unrepentant folks. Do you want to call those folks unsaved? I'm not willing to do that.

Committing sin does not make us unsaved. And I'm not willing to agree with you that all the posters you are referring to have sinned. I think spreading a false teaching is sin. But, I'm not going to say that you're unsaved, just deceived.

Also, you have said many times that a person can STOP believing and still be saved. That's absurd.

 

[J. Jump]

And I'm not willing to agree with you that all the posters you are referring to have sinned.

Really? Please tell me which one of these things is okay in your mind.

Lying about someone.

Misrepresenting what someone believes on multiple occasions when you know the difference.

Making fun of someone.

Speaking evil of someone.

Not loving your neigbor as yourself.

Not loving your fellow believer in Christ.

Which one of those are okay with you Amy?

 

[J. Jump]

Also, you have said many times that a person can STOP believing and still be saved. That's absurd.

Again Amy what is absurd in your mind matters not. It doesn't make a hill of beans amount of difference whether you agree with it or not or whether you understand it or not.

Faith that results in everlasting life is a one-time faith and is over and done with in a moment of time. Scripture NEVER requires life-long faith. The reason is because it is not needed. You are to believe one time and the matter is over with.

So whether a person stops believing at some point in the future is meaningless. They salvation is not dependant on a continuing faith. It's simply not. That's what the Bible says. We can either believe it or not. What we think about it matters not.

 

[Amy.G]

Really? Please tell me which one of these things is okay in your mind.

Lying about someone.

Misrepresenting what someone believes on multiple occasions when you know the difference.

Making fun of someone.

Speaking evil of someone.

Not loving your neigbor as yourself.

Not loving your fellow believer in Christ.

Which one of those are okay with you Amy?

Stop pointing fingers until you're ready to point one at yourself.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Faith that results in everlasting life is a one-time faith and is over and done with in a moment of time. Scripture NEVER requires life-long faith. The reason is because it is not needed. You are to believe one time and the matter is over with.

Vehement disagreement.

Feelings come and go, but faith abides.


1 Cor 13:13

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
KJV


BGTF

 

[J. Jump]

Stop pointing fingers until you're ready to point one at yourself.

That's what I thought Amy!

EDIT: By the way if I have done any of those things to you then please share with me so that I can make it right! I don't recall anything that I have said about you that is not true. I don't recall misrepresenting your position. I certainly didn't do it on purpose and you haven't said that I have done such. I haven't called you any names. If I have not shown love to you please show me how. And that I can recall I have never spoken evil of you and you certainly haven't made that known to me if I have.

I'm not above those things, but if I've done one of them please show me where and how so that I can make it right!

 

[J. Jump]

Vehement disagreement.

Well you can vehemenly disagree all you want to, but there are folks that have believed and then years later stopped believing. Again a life-long faith is not required for a person to possess everlasting life. If that was true a person could never know whether they were saved or not until they breathed their last breath still believing.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Well you can vehemenly disagree all you want to, but there are folks that have believed and then years later stopped believing. Again a life-long faith is not required for a person to possess everlasting life. If that was true a person could never know whether they were saved or not until they breathed their last breath still believing.

These folks of yours were never converted, they just said they were. Faith is comprised of three things Knowledge-Belief-Trust. Even the demons can get to the first two, which by the way is what Heb 6:4-6 is about. Only a converted person has actually made it to an abiding trust, anything short of that makes one only an 'almost christian'.

These are some of the best heart searching articles on this topic.

http://www.fivesolas.com/watson/reproof.htm
http://www.gracegems.org/24/Ryle_alive_or_dead.htm
http://www.pioneernet.net/rbrannan/whitefield/sermons/WITF_023.HTM
http://www.pioneernet.net/rbrannan/whitefield/sermons/WITF_043.HTM

This book is also excellent on this topic.
http://www.christnotes.org/-/_the-almost-christian-discovered_1877611727.asp


BGTF

PS This will be my last post until I know if Dr. Bob will let me continue posting here.

 

[DHK]

That is absolutely correct, but "christian" has its roots in "Christ-like" behavior. If you are not Christ-like in your behavior you are not a "Christian." However just because your actions are not Christ-like does not mean you are spiritually dead and bond for the lake of fire for the endless ages.

The trouble with your theology is that it puts you (somewhat arrogantly) in God's place. Why do you think you have the right to judge others right to the degree whether they should be in heaven or not. I can't figure that one out. It is a position Satan has been trying to take and he is deceived. Only God knows the heart. Why do you and some others here pretend to presume to know the same things?
Here is the problem.

Someone once said: "The greatest tragedy in the church is the moral outsider and the immoral insider."
--How true that is. Jesus also said that he didn't come to save the "righteous." What did he mean when he said that statement? He was speaking of the self-righteous Pharisees who thought that they needed no salvation, many of whom lived very good and upright lives, very "Godly" lives but without "God."
I have a lot of personal experience in this area. My parents are not saved. And yet their personal lives are much more morally upright than most of the born again Christians I know, even in IFB churches. They are more faithful then the average Christian to their church. They never use bad language. They are gentle, kind, caring. But they are not saved. They live a better "Christian" life than most "Christians." They are the ones that show the fruit, compared to most Christians I see.

In other words how do you know who is going to be in heaven and who is not. Who put you in the place of God? Who are you to decide has the "Proper fruit" and who doesn't.
Not every one in this world is a Hitler so to speak.
There are many morally upright people that claim to be Christians and are not.
There are many imitators.
There are many that say they are of another religion and live better lives than the average Christian.
How do you know the heart of others to say who is going to heaven and who is not?

Since some Christians are carnal (1Cor.3:1-3) they won't even look like Christians or be bearing the fruit of a Christian. So how will you know? You can't.

 

[Hope of Glory]

These folks of yours were never converted

"Conversion" is "getting back on the right path". To convert, you have to have already been on the right path.