How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

[DHK]

So basically, no matter what he really said, he really said what you say he really said

I don't have any idea of what you are trying to prove Lacy.
Yes, he really said:

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom.

In spite of all the quotes why are you questioning me?

 

[Lacy Evans]

I don't have any idea of what you are trying to prove Lacy.
Yes, he really said:

In spite of all the quotes why are you questioning me?

DHK says (Post 223) (Emphasis not mine)

And you [Hope of Glory] have staed that according to this verse "that one must "DO SOMETHING" to be born again. I consider that heresy. Salvation is by grace through faith.

He then quotes where HoG supposedly says it. (emphasis not mine)

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom.

There they are, side by side. Do they look the same?

What I am trying to say is that no matter how much DHK wants or believes them to be the same, they are not.

DHK, you might try asking him if that is what he meant instead of telling him what you know he "really" meant. Talk about wasted bandwidth.

Lacy

 

[DHK]

DHK says (Post 223) (Emphasis not mine)


He then quotes where HoG supposedly says it. (emphasis not mine)



There they are, side by side. Do they look the same?

What I am trying to say is that no matter how much DHK wants or believes them to be the same, they are not.

DHK, you might try asking him if that is what he meant instead of telling him what you know he "really" meant. Talk about wasted bandwidth.

Lacy

Lacy, I can guess at what he meant, (I think I know), and you can correct me if I am wrong. The ME proponents put forth a false gospel. They differentiate between the new birth "born from above" and salvaton "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". They say that one has to do exclusively with entering the kingdom and is obtained by works (born from above). The other (our spiritual salvation) is by grace through faith.
However, since salvation is by the new birth, being the same as believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, the ME folk have concocted a new gospel, another gospel, a false gospel, a gospel of works. That is why the statement: "He must do something" in relation to John 3:5 is heretical. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. And John 3:5 is definitely speaking of our spiritual salvation, not entrance into some far off kingdom.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy, I can guess at what he meant, (I think I know), and you can correct me if I am wrong.

All you had to do was say that in the first place.

The ME proponents put forth a false gospel. They differentiate between the new birth "born from above" and salvaton "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ".

No. I don't anyway. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is how we get born again. (Although there is a believing that we need to do even after we are saved. Believing that if we obey the conditions of conditional promises, that God will reward us. (Heb 11:6) But this is for folks who are already saved.)

They say that one has to do exclusively with entering the kingdom and is obtained by works (born from above). The other (our spiritual salvation) is by grace through faith.

We do divide these two facets of the Christian experience. I agree. But I don't understand the way you described it above, with the "born from above" and "believe on the lord." We don't divide that. It's the same thing.

However, since salvation is by the new birth, being the same as believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, the ME folk have concocted a new gospel, another gospel, a false gospel, a gospel of works.

No. we believe that exactly as you have written it. Works is for folks who are already saved and should be discussed in conjunction with reward, not salvation (in the eternal sense)

That is why the statement: "He must do something" in relation to John 3:5 is heretical. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. And John 3:5 is definitely speaking of our spiritual salvation, not entrance into some far off kingdom.

Brother, we divide it just like Jesus does. "Enter the Kingdom" means "enter the kingdom".

Water cosistently symbolizes works, and/or our part. You can't put the water on the wrong side of the altar. It's the altar first, then the laver.

Likewise, the Kingdom is consistently seen in the context of reward. That is, it is always associated with conditions, positive and negative, for its entrance.

 

[skypair]

DHK -- I cannot believe you shut off a thread for making peace with ME-ers!! What could possibly be your motivation for that????? Do you NOT believe "blessed are the peacemakers???" Or do you just believe that "peacemakers" are nuclear weapons??!!

Apparently you don't care about the "unity" of believers on Christ, eh?

skypair

[edited for size of font]

 

[DHK]

DHK -- I cannot believe you shut off a thread for making peace with ME-ers!! What could possibly be your motivation for that????? Do you NOT believe "blessed are the peacemakers???" Or do you just believe that "peacemakers" are nuclear weapons??!!

skypair

Skypair I previously asked that no more thread be opened on ME theology. We did have 8 threads running concurrently at one time. Enough is enough.

 

[skypair]

Skypair I previously asked that no more thread be opened on ME theology. We did have 8 threads running concurrently at one time. Enough is enough.

Please, DHK. Making peace and understanding ought to be what we are about! Close someone else's thread, pls -- unless you are about dissembling the brothers. How do you keep a thread where people are at each other's throats and close one where "unity of the knowledge and faith of Christ" is the aim??? Aren't things getting enough "out of hand" on this thread for you yet???? Frankly -- I've had enough of this "bickering!"

skypair

 

[standingfirminChrist]

We should not question the moderators decisions to close threads. That is to their discretion.

 

[DHK]

Water cosistently symbolizes works, and/or our part. You can't put the water on the wrong side of the altar. It's the altar first, then the laver.

Likewise, the Kingdom is consistently seen in the context of reward. That is, it is always associated with conditions, positive and negative, for its entrance.

That's Catholic theology. Water does not consistently symbolize works. Where do you get that from. Catholics say that in this passage water represents the "work" of baptism, and thus baptismal regeneration. Substitute works here and you have the heretical doctrine of a works salvation. That is what is upsetting to me. Either salvation is by faith or by works, which is it? Either it is by grace through faith or it is by works, which one. Here is what the Bible clearly says:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--You have eliminated grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--You have eliminated faith.

 

[skypair]

We should not question the moderators decisions to close threads. That is to their discretion.

Yeah, and let's all do what the Pope says do, SFiC. Isn't that what divided us in the first place??

skypair

 

[skypair]

Substitute works here and you have the heretical doctrine of a works salvation.

I thought we weren't supposed to use this word about anyone????

skypair

 

[Hope of Glory]

It is not a lie to say that you believe you must do something to be born again. That is what you said.

I asked you to quote where I said this. Until you do, you are a liar.

You posted a link where I said the exact opposite of what you claim I said.

Here, I'll post my quote so they are on the same page:

Unless a man be born from above, he shall not see the Kingdom of God.

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom.

Just like the type that we are given in the children of Israel: They were already in the Promised Land, even if they never left their homes in Goshen. They were saved. This Promised Land was based on nothing more than being in the family.

But, to get to the Land Flowing With Milk and Honey (a Promised Land that was contingent upon works; being faithful), they had to leave their home, be baptized in the Red Sea, and remain faithful, with many of them falling in the wilderness.

But, they were already in the Promised Land.

Maybe God didn't really mean that promise, eh?

Now, if I stated what you said, it should be really easy to produce the quote where I said that a person is spirituall saved by works.

Until you produce it, you are a liar.

 

[DHK]

Yeah, and let's all do what the Pope says do, SFiC. Isn't that what divided us in the first place??

skypair

These are suggestions put forth by the administration, and prompted by some of the posters. There are two many threads on one topic. Right now there are four obvious ones, and perhaps a couple of others that are not so obvious. I may, in the near future, close two more (or just delete them) so we just have two threads remaining on this topic. Surely you can find some other theological topics to discuss:

How many short (or small) people are in the Bible?
Peter slept on his watch.

 

[DHK]

First HOG do not call me a liar.
Second, I have quoted you many times, just as you quoted yourself:

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom.

There is nothing that is more clear than that statement.
Are you recanting it?

 

[James_Newman]

First HOG do not call me a liar.
Second, I have quoted you many times, just as you quoted yourself:

There is nothing that is more clear than that statement.
Are you recanting it?

Have you completely overlooked the fact that we over and over again state that entering the kingdom is not eternal salvation?

 

[Hope of Glory]

They differentiate between the new birth "born from above" and salvaton "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ".

Being born from above is precisely based upon "believe on the Lord Jesus", plus nothing else to earn it, keep it, or prove it. A person who is born from above is in the family forever and ever and ever and that cannot be lost or forfeited, even if the individual has zero works to their account.

That is precisely what I have said, over and over and over and over, yet npetreley, Amy G, and now you come in here and say that I said something else.

Yet, I am directly calling you a liar. All you have to do to prove that you're not a liar is to produce the quote where I said that being born from above has anything at all to do with works.

I've never said it!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Catholics say that in this passage water represents the "work" of baptism, and thus baptismal regeneration.

It represents the work of baptism, but unless you think that baptism is required to be saved (which it isn't), then this passage must have to do with something besides being born into the family. Oh, look! It says right there, "Unless a man do these works, he cannot enter into the Kingdom."

Now, if you want to equate an entrance into the Kingdom with being born from above, I can show you all sorts of works that you have to do to be saved.

But, they're not the same thing, according to Scripture, and I've made it explicitly clear that I don't equate them.

 

[skypair]

These are suggestions put forth by the administration, and prompted by some of the posters. There are two many threads on one topic. Right now there are four obvious ones, and perhaps a couple of others that are not so obvious. I may, in the near future, close two more (or just delete them) so we just have two threads remaining on this topic. Surely you can find some other theological topics to discuss:

How many short (or small) people are in the Bible?
Peter slept on his watch.

I love ya, bro -- but like the ME-ers, I don't understand you. Do you want to "close the gap" or not?? ME-ers receive the same Christ you do -- they are just 'out there' in their discipleship (unless your supposition is that they aren't saved).

Look -- we believers all start with "unity of the Spirit." Now we need to move on to "unity of knowledge and faith!" That's part of Christian growth. Read 1Cor 2 for details tonight while you are trying to go to sleep on this. We need a forum where we can treat everyone's beliefs as grounded somewhere in scripture and yet possibly misguided -- or not. But this 'baiting' each other had to stop!

skypair

 

[Hope of Glory]

First HOG do not call me a liar.
Second, I have quoted you many times, just as you quoted yourself:

You keep quoting where I have made a statement in regards to an entrance into the Kingdom.

You have yet to quote where I have said that works enters into being born from above.

Yet, you claim that I stated such.

It should be easy for you to show.

Yet, you fail to show it.

I wonder why?

Could it be because I have never said such a thing?

 

[DHK]

Have you completely overlooked the fact that we over and over again state that entering the kingdom is not eternal salvation?

That is why HOG and most of you others don't understand what Amy or myself and others are trying to say to you. So,
#1. Don't call us liars; it may lead to a suspension. We haven't lied. You have changed the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and we fully realize that. We will not bow down to your theology. We will not change our definitions of orthodox Christianity to suit your new religion. You basically believe in a relgion of neo-orthodoxy, where you have changed common theological terms to fit your own ideas. Thus the concept of "born again" has been completely changed." The concept of "water" in "born of water and of the Spirit" has been completely changed. This is rank neo-orthodoxy. You change definitions to suit your own theology.
Neo-orthodoxy is older than your kingdom theology.

So when we tell you the truth don't call us liars just because we don't bow down to you faulty terminology. You are the ones that are changing the Bible.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--That speaks of our spiritual salvation. It always has. I have been in the ministry for over 30 years and I have never heard a sermon on the new birth that even comes remotely close to what you are trying to espouse on this board. So don't tell me that I am lying or not telling the truth. I am telling you the truth of the Bible, which unfortunately, you are rejecting. You have a works based salvation according to this passage. Every great expositor of Scripture that I have ever heard or read has understood this passage the same way that I do. It is not talking about some future kingdom. It is speaking of the here and now. Now is the day of salvation. Now is the accepted time. Now you must be born again. Now you must be saved. And none of that has to do with a literal kingdom.