How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

[standingfirminChrist]

Yeah, and let's all do what the Pope says do, SFiC. Isn't that what divided us in the first place??

skypair

skypair,

If you don't like the way mod's are running the BB, start yer own forum board.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

These are suggestions put forth by the administration, and prompted by some of the posters. There are two many threads on one topic. Right now there are four obvious ones, and perhaps a couple of others that are not so obvious. I may, in the near future, close two more (or just delete them) so we just have two threads remaining on this topic. Surely you can find some other theological topics to discuss:

How many short (or small) people are in the Bible?
Peter slept on his watch.

Bildad the Shuhite (shoe height)

 

[James_Newman]

That is why HOG and most of you others don't understand what Amy or myself and others are trying to say to you. So,
#1. Don't call us liars; it may lead to a suspension. We haven't lied. You have changed the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and we fully realize that. We will not bow down to your theology. We will not change our definitions of orthodox Christianity to suit your new religion. You basically believe in a relgion of neo-orthodoxy, where you have changed common theological terms to fit your own ideas. Thus the concept of "born again" has been completely changed." The concept of "water" in "born of water and of the Spirit" has been completely changed. This is rank neo-orthodoxy. You change definitions to suit your own theology.
Neo-orthodoxy is older than your kingdom theology.

So when we tell you the truth don't call us liars just because we don't bow down to you faulty terminology. You are the ones that are changing the Bible.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--That speaks of our spiritual salvation. It always has. I have been in the ministry for over 30 years and I have never heard a sermon on the new birth that even comes remotely close to what you are trying to espouse on this board. So don't tell me that I am lying or not telling the truth. I am telling you the truth of the Bible, which unfortunately, you are rejecting. You have a works based salvation according to this passage. Every great expositor of Scripture that I have ever heard or read has understood this passage the same way that I do. It is not talking about some future kingdom. It is speaking of the here and now. Now is the day of salvation. Now is the accepted time. Now you must be born again. Now you must be saved. And none of that has to do with a literal kingdom.

I can't help it if your dictionary is busted.

 

[Hope of Glory]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--That speaks of our spiritual salvation. It always has.

Which, if you would actually read what was written is precisely what I have said. The person who is born from above sees the Kingdom. They're in the family. Period. Forever and ever.

It is not talking about some future kingdom.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

There! I fixed so the Bible now agrees with you! It now has nothing to do with the Kingdom.

It is speaking of the here and now. Now is the day of salvation. Now is the accepted time. Now you must be born again. Now you must be saved.

Now is the only time you can be saved. After you're dead, it's too late. That's not what judgment is about, though. Judgment has to do with our works, not whether or not we're saved.

And none of that has to do with a literal kingdom.

So, are you saying that seeing and entering something are exactly the same thing?

 

[npetreley]

That is why HOG and most of you others don't understand what Amy or myself and others are trying to say to you. So,
#1. Don't call us liars; it may lead to a suspension. We haven't lied. You have changed the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and we fully realize that. We will not bow down to your theology. We will not change our definitions of orthodox Christianity to suit your new religion. You basically believe in a relgion of neo-orthodoxy, where you have changed common theological terms to fit your own ideas. Thus the concept of "born again" has been completely changed." The concept of "water" in "born of water and of the Spirit" has been completely changed. This is rank neo-orthodoxy. You change definitions to suit your own theology.
Neo-orthodoxy is older than your kingdom theology.

So when we tell you the truth don't call us liars just because we don't bow down to you faulty terminology. You are the ones that are changing the Bible.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--That speaks of our spiritual salvation. It always has. I have been in the ministry for over 30 years and I have never heard a sermon on the new birth that even comes remotely close to what you are trying to espouse on this board. So don't tell me that I am lying or not telling the truth. I am telling you the truth of the Bible, which unfortunately, you are rejecting. You have a works based salvation according to this passage. Every great expositor of Scripture that I have ever heard or read has understood this passage the same way that I do. It is not talking about some future kingdom. It is speaking of the here and now. Now is the day of salvation. Now is the accepted time. Now you must be born again. Now you must be saved. And none of that has to do with a literal kingdom.

Amen.

You forgot redefining eternal as 1,000 years, and I'm sure there are plenty more redefinitions.

I'm glad you're tackling this for the sake of orthodoxy and (more important) for the sake of Christ.

 

[Lacy Evans]

#1. Don't call us liars; it may lead to a suspension. We haven't lied.

OK. But it would help if you quit putting words in his mouth. There are better ways to say the samething without accusing someone of SAYING something when you really mean that YOU THINK they IMPLIED it!

That is what is so inflammatory and actually tiresome because we spend so much . . .er (I can't resist) bandwidth:laugh: . . .sorting out who said what.

You have changed the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and we fully realize that. We will not bow down to your theology.

Amen! That is your right as a child of God, but it's not the issue.

We will not change our definitions of orthodox Christianity to suit your new religion.

It's just as wrong for you to bludgeon us with your own definitions. A little tolerance from both sides would be very Christian.

You basically believe in a relgion of neo-orthodoxy, where you have changed common theological terms to fit your own ideas.

I thought that was what we were here to decide through debate. But debate without decorum is just vain wrangling.

So when we tell you the truth don't call us liars just because we don't bow down to you faulty terminology. You are the ones that are changing the Bible.

He called you a liar because you misquoted him and will not rescind it.

--That speaks of our spiritual salvation. It always has. I have been in the ministry for over 30 years and I have never heard a sermon on the new birth that even comes remotely close to what you are trying to espouse on this board.

Maybe your stack of books is too short. Buy you some Govett from Lewis Schoettle! It'll bless your heart.

Now is the day of salvation. Now is the accepted time. Now you must be born again. Now you must be saved. And none of that has to do with a literal kingdom.

Amen! John 3:3

 

[DHK]

OK. But it would help if you quit putting words in his mouth. There are better ways to say the samething without accusing someone of SAYING something when you really mean that YOU THINK they IMPLIED it!

Lacy, a direct quote with the URL provided is not putting words into anyone's mouth. Again I state to you in my own words the problem:
"You have to do something to be born again" (John 3:5) Now that is what was said (from memory). Why deny it. Why infer that I am lying when I quoted it, provided the URL, and took you to the exact post. Any statement that says that one has to do something to be born again is a works salvation denying faith and grace. Those are the logical outcomes.
Now if ME people have changed theological terms, changed meanings of words, so that we are now speaking right past each other than we have a problem. You might as well go and write your own Bible. We use orthodox terminology which you can find in any standard Bible dictionary--not a "Joey Faust website dictionary." I never misquoted anyone. How could that be.
If what the poster meant was different than what he wrote then he has a problem with communication, not me. I know the meaning of the new birth. I wasn't the one that made the statement. If HOG made a false statement, an ambiguous statement, then he should admit it. But if he actually believes in the statement that he made it is theologically incorrect and espouses a works salvation. It is as simple as that. To wiggle out of that you (people) try and change definitions of words. That is all there is to it. But if you are honest with the theological definitions of words then HOG will have to admit that he made a statement that is theologcially incorrect.

It's just as wrong for you to bludgeon us with your own definitions. A little tolerance from both sides would be very Christian.

Most definitions can be found within the Bible itself. Beyond that they can be found in a Greek lexicon, and then the use of a Bible dictionary or even encyclopdia. We don't need a man-made definition from some-one else's religion.

He called you a liar because you misquoted him and will not rescind it.

As I explained above a quote with a URL attached cannot be a misquote. It was an exact quote with the context provided. It was quoted many times. If he calls me a liar on that then he only proves the opposite.

Maybe your stack of books is too short. Buy you some Govett from Lewis Schoettle! It'll bless your heart.

As I have already seen, you read what you want to read. You read into things. Tozer preaches on accountability and you read into it, first the JSOC, and then mistakenly conclude ME, and other erroneous doctrines. It is ridiculous on how you defend an unbiblical doctrine.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy, a direct quote with the URL provided is not putting words into anyone's mouth. Again I state to you in my own words the problem:

Grrrrrrr! Saying it over and over doesn't make it so.


You say (Post 223) (Emphasis not mine)

And you [Hope of Glory] have staed that according to this verse "that one must "DO SOMETHING" to be born again. I consider that heresy. Salvation is by grace through faith.

You then quote where HoG supposedly says it. (emphasis not mine)

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom.

There they are, side by side. Do they look the same?

It is not a dad-gum quote. You changed it, paraphrased it, and mutilated it. And you know good and well that HoG separates "being born again" from "entering the Kingdom". That is the essence of this debate.

He has said many times you do nothing but believe to be born again. You just don't like the second part so you blend them together and pretend that they are the same. If you don't agree with the theology, or the terminology, then just say that. But dude if you think that is a quote, you're losing your mind!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Instead of saying that I said something that I never said, why not show why you think that seeing and entering are the same thing?

That would avoid the dishonesty.

 

[DHK]

Grrrrrrr! Saying it over and over doesn't make it so.


You say (Post 223) (Emphasis not mine)



You then quote where HoG supposedly says it. (emphasis not mine)



There they are, side by side. Do they look the same?

They are not the same. Go back and check post #206. You are the one misquoting it. That is not what HOG said. He put no such caveat that you deceitfully added on. His actual quote was

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom

And that is no lie.

The lie comes in Lacy, when you have added those words:
"I consider that heresy. Salvation is by grace through faith."

They were NOT in the original quote, which still stand on post #206. Read it for yourself. I do not lie.

 

[DHK]

Due to the last many many pages that have gone way off topic, and have turned more into name calling than actual debate this thread will be closed. Besides it has reached 27 pages (almost 30) and has run its course. Please do not start another one, but post on one of the many that already exist on Kingdom Theology or ME doctrine, whatever name you wish to call it.