How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[JonC]

God os the God of the living, not the dead or asleep, as paul looked forward to being out of His body and immediatly into the presence of the Lord Jesus, the One whom he served!



We have some very starnge and non baptist/bibical things being discussed on the Board, such as soul sleep and sinner perishing in the end!

I agree. We do have strange ideas blended with Christianity on this thread.

BYW, Did you find a reference of Paul stating that we will be in Heaven the moment we die?

 

[DHK]

I have believed the gospel of Christ concerning the kingdom and the name and after confession of these things was baptised by immersion Acts 8:5,12. This is a quick response to your Post without answering every detail.
Jesus and Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom:
Luke 8:1 (KJV): And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
Acts 28:30-31 (KJV): And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

There is only one gospel. It is not Jesus' gospel, or Paul's gospel, etc.
Paul spoke against that:
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?[/FONT]
--Christ (and the gospel) is not divided. The message is one.
If one does not believe that Christ, by his death, burial and resurrection, paid the penalty for their sin that they so richly deserve, then they will go to Hell, a place of torment, which in the future will be cast into the Lake of Fire, and there be tormented forever and ever.
Baptism is not part of the gospel. It is not needful to be baptized to be saved.
Paul himself did not lay much stress on baptism:
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.[/FONT]

But Peter was speaking after Jesus had ascended to heaven, and David was still only in his tomb.

David's body is in his tomb or whatever may be left of it. David's spirit and soul are in heaven. There is no such thing as soul sleep. Does the soul sleep in 1Cor.11:30? What does sleep mean there? It means what it always means: "death!"

At least possibly we will be on earth together eventually, but I will be happy to sleep in the dust of the earth, in hell – the covered place, six feet under, until that day arrives.

Hell is a place of torment; it always has been. It is not simply the dust of the earth. You don't get to choose your own definitions.
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:[/FONT]
--It is forever.

[FONT=&quot]Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:[/FONT]
--As a saved man Paul left only these two choices:a
One was to live.
The other was to be in heaven with Jesus.
There are no other options.

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings The Biblicist,
Neither has David’s immortal soul or immaterial spirit ascended into heaven, as it says David has not ascended into heaven. "David" is not in two places at once, he is sleeping in the dust of the earth, awaiting the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

You are simply ignorant of the scriptures just as Jesus told the Sadducees who believed exactly as you do. Paul said to be "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" and the Lord was not in the grave. You have no clue what "absent from the body" means because you fundementally deny the very meaning of those words. Paul was more than a "body." There was some other aspect of Paul's human nature that could be "absent from the body" with Christ in heaven.

David's body was in the grave, but to confuse his body with his immaterial nature is cultic. According to David, when his body died, he did in fact have a heavenly hope:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

You deny David's words "I am CONTINUALLY WITH THEE". David spells out exactly what he means. While on earth "thou shalt guide me" thus being CONTINUALLY WITH THEE and "AFTERWARD" there is reception of David in "GLORY" and thus CONTINUALLY WITH THEE. "to glory" is defined as "IN HEAVEN" and thus God is CONTINUALLY WITH thee whether "upon earth" or "in heaven."
David speaks of only two options "heaven" and "earth" for David "BEING CONTINUALLY WITH THEE" but you deny the very meaning of the words "CONTINUALLY WITH thee" as you believe David did not continue at all but ceased to exist at death and thus David was not "CONTINUALLY WITH thee."

 

[T Alan]

You are simply ignorant of the scriptures just as Jesus told the Sadducees who believed exactly as you do.e."

No disgrace in being ignorant. Wanting to stay ignorant; Now that's a sow with a different snort if ya know what I mean.

 

[annsni]

If there is such a thing of soul sleep, were Moses and Elijah raised from the grave, given bodies and then sent back to earth? I guess so.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Yeshua1, DHK, The Biblicist and annsi,

The following is a reasonably detailed response to the first part of Yeshua1’s post and a brief response to the other posts.

The Thief went with jesus to paradise on that very day, and Moses andf Elijah were botrh alive at time of Christ, as God is tghe lod of the living, not the dead or alsleep!

I prefer the suggested translation and comments by Ethelbert W Bullinger in the Companion Bible margin, where he suggests that the comma can be moved, and then the “today” is connected with “I say unto you today” rather than “To day shalt thou be with me in paradise”. The passage then reads:
Luke 23:39-43 (KJV and EWB):39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
This fits with the thief’s question concerning the kingdom and Jesus’ return or coming. Jesus also comforted him with the reassurance that the thief would not need to wait till the kingdom to know that he would be with Jesus in the that day, but the thief will be raised and share in the blessings of the kingdom.

Paradise is the word for garden and refers to the restoration of all things when Jesus returns Acts 3:19-21, Psalm 8.
Isaiah 51:3 (KJV): For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
Ezekiel 36:35 (KJV): And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

Jesus was not in Heaven or Paradise on the day of his death. He was in hell, the grave. He had not ascended to Heaven when he met Mary in the Garden after his resurrection:
John 20:17 (KJV): Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Acts 2:24-28 (KJV): 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

There is only one gospel. It is not Jesus' gospel, or Paul's gospel, etc.
Christ (and the gospel) is not divided. The message is one.

Yes I agree that there is only one Gospel, preached from Eden onwards, and the detail of this was fully developed or explained or revealed by the time when the Apostles preached, comprising the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ Acts 8:5,12.

If one does not believe that Christ, by his death, burial and resurrection, paid the penalty for their sin that they so richly deserve, then they will go to Hell, a place of torment, which in the future will be cast into the Lake of Fire, and there be tormented forever and ever.

I believe that Christ died as our representative and our sins are forgiven when we believe in him. I do not believe in eternal torments, but destruction, a return to the dust of the earth. The fire that burns till it consumes, and the worm that eats until it also consumes, based on the figure of Gehenna, the rubbish dump outside Jerusalem.

Baptism is not part of the gospel. It is not needful to be baptized to be saved.
Paul himself did not lay much stress on baptism:

I believe that baptism is the appointed means to be identified with the death and resurrection of Jesus Romans 6:1-8, Galatians 3:26-29.

According to David, when his body died, he did in fact have a heavenly hope.
Psa. 73:23: Nevertheless I am continually with thee

Where does it say David’s soul went to heaven when he died?

If there is such a thing of soul sleep, were Moses and Elijah raised from the grave, given bodies and then sent back to earth? I guess so.

I do not believe in “soul sleep” as that infers that the body and soul are separate entities. I believe that a living soul is a breathing body that has the ability to think. When we breathe our last we become a dead soul and we cease to think. I believe that Moses and Elijah were temporarily resurrected to be with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. This also is a partial answer to the latter part of Yeshua1’s post.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Where does it say David’s soul went to heaven when he died?

Wow! Why not just write off what he said altogether? I guess that is one way to win a debate, just ignore what David said. He gave only two options "upon earth" and "in heaven" as the only two possible locations that he would be CONTINUALLY with God. Funny thing, he never mentions your option at all! Wonder why?

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. We do have strange ideas blended with Christianity on this thread.

BYW, Did you find a reference of Paul stating that we will be in Heaven the moment we die?

paul was looking forward to physical death, as he would right yhen be in the presence of his jesus, correct?

 

[JonC]

paul was looking forward to physical death, as he would right yhen be in the presence of his jesus, correct?

That's how I read the passage. Are you speaking of heaven as in the presence of Christ or are you speaking of our final and eternal home? I was thinking, when I read this thread, of the streets of gold etc....but now I realize that this was not specified in the OP.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

David's body was in the grave, but to confuse his body with his immaterial nature is cultic. According to David, when his body died, he did in fact have a heavenly hope:
Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

You deny David's words "I am CONTINUALLY WITH THEE". David spells out exactly what he means. While on earth "thou shalt guide me" thus being CONTINUALLY WITH THEE and "AFTERWARD" there is reception of David in "GLORY" and thus CONTINUALLY WITH THEE. "to glory" is defined as "IN HEAVEN" and thus God is CONTINUALLY WITH thee whether "upon earth" or "in heaven."
David speaks of only two options "heaven" and "earth" for David "BEING CONTINUALLY WITH THEE" but you deny the very meaning of the words "CONTINUALLY WITH thee" as you believe David did not continue at all but ceased to exist at death and thus David was not "CONTINUALLY WITH thee."

Wow! Why not just write off what he said altogether? I guess that is one way to win a debate, just ignore what David said. He gave only two options "upon earth" and "in heaven" as the only two possible locations that he would be CONTINUALLY with God. Funny thing, he never mentions your option at all! Wonder why?

I appreciate your response, but I do not read into Psalm 73 the concept of an immortal soul. I find the language of Psalm 73 similar to Psalm 16:
Psalm 16:8-11 (KJV): 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

This passage is used by Peter in Acts 2 and by Paul in Acts 13 to teach the resurrection of the body. The hope of David was in the resurrection based upon the promises made to him concerning his throne in 2 Samuel 7:12-16. The phrase “the sure mercies of David” relate to this hope, based upon the last words of David in 2 Samuel 23 and Isaiah 55:1-3. Paul in Acts 13 links Psalm 16 with this phrase “the sure mercies of David”

David’s view of the state of the dead is revealed in the following:
Psalm 6:4-5 (KJV): Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies’ sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 146:2-4 (KJV): While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

Greetings Yeshua1, DHK, The Biblicist and annsi,

The following is a reasonably detailed response to the first part of Yeshua1’s post and a brief response to the other posts.

I prefer the suggested translation and comments by Ethelbert W Bullinger in the Companion Bible margin, where he suggests that the comma can be moved, and then the “today” is connected with “I say unto you today” rather than “To day shalt thou be with me in paradise”. The passage then reads:
Luke 23:39-43 (KJV and EWB):39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
This fits with the thief’s question concerning the kingdom and Jesus’ return or coming. Jesus also comforted him with the reassurance that the thief would not need to wait till the kingdom to know that he would be with Jesus in the that day, but the thief will be raised and share in the blessings of the kingdom.

He is wrong and so are you. Jesus did not need speech or grammar lessons. He did not use useless or meaningless words.
Bullinger's translation (and yours) renders the word redundant and meaningless. If Jesus meant to say: "You shall be with me in paradise," that is what he would have said. The word "today" is not needed. The Holy Spirit put it there for emphasis sake--today! You shall be with me in paradise. That is the only grammatically correct way to read the statement otherwise the word has no meaning, no sense. It is meaningless and redundant. Jesus doesn't use meaningless words.

Paradise is the word for garden and refers to the restoration of all things when Jesus returns Acts 3:19-21, Psalm 8.
Isaiah 51:3 (KJV): For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
Ezekiel 36:35 (KJV): And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

This is scripture out of context. It is not the way that Christ used the word, "paradise." There is more than one meaning to the word. You have stated your opinion, but that is all it is.

Jesus was not in Heaven or Paradise on the day of his death. He was in hell, the grave. He had not ascended to Heaven when he met Mary in the Garden after his resurrection:
John 20:17 (KJV): Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Acts 2:24-28 (KJV): 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Jesus did go to paradise. Paradise is where Abraham and Lazarus were. It is where the rich man wasn't.
The Bible says that Christ "led captivity captive."

[FONT=&quot]Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)[/FONT]
--He took them from paradise to heaven.

Yes I agree that there is only one Gospel, preached from Eden onwards, and the detail of this was fully developed or explained or revealed by the time when the Apostles preached, comprising the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ Acts 8:5,12.

I doubt if you know what the real gospel is.
Define the gospel.
What was the gospel in Eden that Adam and Eve believed in?

I believe that Christ died as our representative and our sins are forgiven when we believe in him. I do not believe in eternal torments, but destruction, a return to the dust of the earth. The fire that burns till it consumes, and the worm that eats until it also consumes, based on the figure of Gehenna, the rubbish dump outside Jerusalem.

That again is your opinion. It is not what the Bible teaches.
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/FONT]

I believe that baptism is the appointed means to be identified with the death and resurrection of Jesus Romans 6:1-8, Galatians 3:26-29.

Is baptism required for salvation? Yes or no.

Where does it say David’s soul went to heaven when he died?

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
There you have only two choices for a saved person: six feet under in a grave, or present with the Lord. There are no other options.

I do not believe in “soul sleep” as that infers that the body and soul are separate entities. I believe that a living soul is a breathing body that has the ability to think. When we breathe our last we become a dead soul and we cease to think. I believe that Moses and Elijah were temporarily resurrected to be with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. This also is a partial answer to the latter part of Yeshua1’s post.

[FONT=&quot]James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/FONT]
Death is when the spirit and soul depart from the body. The body is buried and in the grave.
Almost 99% of the mass of the human body is made up of six elements: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.
However there are about 60 elements all together that can be found in the body. Which of those elements do you suppose make up the soul? You see how ridiculous your position is. The body goes back to dust from whence it came--to all these different elements. The soul has departed. The life is gone. God gives life; God takes it away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

There are only two options: to remain here; to be with the Lord.
Or to remain here; to go to Hell. It all depends on one's spiritual status doesn't it?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DHK,

He is wrong and so are you. Jesus did not need speech or grammar lessons. He did not use useless or meaningless words.
Bullinger's translation (and yours) renders the word redundant and meaningless. If Jesus meant to say: "You shall be with me in paradise," that is what he would have said. The word "today" is not needed. The Holy Spirit put it there for emphasis sake--today! You shall be with me in paradise. That is the only grammatically correct way to read the statement otherwise the word has no meaning, no sense. It is meaningless and redundant. Jesus doesn't use meaningless words.

I appreciate your detailed answer and the following does not answer every detail. I used Bullinger as he was proficient at Greek, while I do not know Greek. The thief asked to be remembered when Jesus came in his Kingdom – in other words the thief understood that Jesus would go to heaven as per Psalm 110:1 for example, and then return to establish his kingdom. At that time Jesus would raise the dead, and judge them, and bless those that were accounted worthy, those had believed in him and were faithful unto the end. Jesus answered the thief that he would not have to wait until the judgment to know that he would receive the blessing in that day. Jesus reassured him that very day where they were both dying, ”today”, that the thief would be in paradise with him. He would be in the kingdom of God on earth when Jesus returns.

This is scripture out of context. It is not the way that Christ used the word, "paradise." There is more than one meaning to the word. You have stated your opinion, but that is all it is.

I accept that you would understand this word differently, possibly because of your heaven or hell at death environment.. My environment has been a belief in the mortality of man, and the promises to Abraham and David and the resurrection to inherit the kingdom of God on earth.

Some 15 or 20 years ago I visited a Baptist Church on invitation and the subject advertised was the Second Coming of Christ. The main message of the preacher was: if you don’t repent the devil will get you and you will go to hell. Two items down you ask me to “Define the gospel”. Refer to my answer there, but I was curious if the Baptists had a clear understanding or definition of what “The Kingdom of God” represents. Is there a range of opinion, and is this considered important? There is certainly a heaven and hell at death environment, but do the Baptists consider an understanding of “The Kingdom of God” as part of the gospel?

The Bible says that Christ "led captivity captive."

Yes, Jesus is the captain of our salvation. He has overcome all the effects of sin and death within himself. We share in his victory now, and the believers will fully share in these things when he raises them from the dead at his return.

I doubt if you know what the real gospel is.
Define the gospel.
What was the gospel in Eden that Adam and Eve believed in?

I mentioned Acts 8:5,12 where to preach Christ was to preach the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ. These two items can be explained in some detail by looking at the speeches by Peter in Acts 2 and 3, I have participated in a number of threads concerning various aspects of the gospel.

Adam and Eve were taught the mortality of man, and sentenced to return to the dust. They were clothed in skins of a slain animal when they had sinned – implying the shedding of blood associated with forgiveness. They were taught, the conflict between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman, and the ultimate victory of the seed of the woman. They were cast out of the garden so that they could not immediately eat the tree of life and live for ever. They were introduced to the cherubim and the preservation of the way to the tree of life. They witnessed the sad slaying of their faithful son Abel.

All of the above are only a brief summary, even as the record is brief, but these items indicate that they believed in a coming saviour who would eventually subdue all things and have the dominion that Adam lost – for example Psalm 8.

Is baptism required for salvation? Yes or no.

True faith leads to baptism, as cause and effect.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
There you have only two choices for a saved person: six feet under in a grave, or present with the Lord. There are no other options.
There are only two options: to remain here; to be with the Lord.
Or to remain here; to go to Hell. It all depends on one's spiritual status doesn't it?

When Paul was about to depart, he looked to the future kingdom and the return of Jesus.
2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV): I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:6-8 (KJV): 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul had the same hope as the thief on the cross. He also faced death and the future prospect of judgement with the reassurance that Jesus would give him the crown of righteousness. All tose who love his appearing have this same hope.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Baptism is not part of salvation. It is an act of obedience.


The Gospel is what saves:

Ro 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Baptism is NOT the gospel:


1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Therefore, Baptism does not save. It's an act of obedience.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings xfrodobagginsx,

Baptism is not part of salvation. It is an act of obedience.
The Gospel is what saves:
Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Baptism is NOT the gospel:
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Therefore, Baptism does not save. It's an act of obedience.

I am sure this has been discussed many times on this forum. Yes salvation is by means of faith in the gospel, but faith leads a person to be baptised. You are quoting 1 Corinthians 1:17 out of context. Paul does not isolate faith and obedience, nor faith and baptism in the way you have stated. Even the Book of Romans speaks of obedience that is the product of faith.
Romans 1:1-5 (KJV):
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 16:25-26 (KJV): 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Hebrews 11 shows the link between faith and obedience:
Hebrews 11: (KJV): 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DHK others,

I doubt if you know what the real gospel is.
Define the gospel.

I mentioned Acts 8:5,12 where to preach Christ was to preach the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ. These two items can be explained in some detail by looking at the speeches by Peter in Acts 2 and 3, I have participated in a number of threads concerning various aspects of the gospel.

The above was my response to DHK’s request for my definition of the gospel. Perhaps this was not detailed enough to gain a response. Also I would be interested in your definition of the gospel. I saw a sign yesterday on a main street and at a quick glance it said “The Gospel”, and then I think it was stating at least part of 1 Corinthians 15:1-3.

Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Luke in his record of Philip’s preaching to the Samaritans considered it sufficient to state that Philip “preached Christ unto them” Acts 8:5, and the Samaritans believed Philip’s preaching of the gospel and were baptised Acts 8:12. The gospel is defined here as “the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ”. So the Gospel is not only Christ died for our sins and incorrectly we will go to heaven if we believe in him, or hell if we do not believe in him.

Looking at Acts 3 there is an example of some of the details that the Apostles preached. In part of the message preached, Peter speaks of the things concerning the name of Jesus Christ. Firstly the lame man was healed by Peter in the name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 3:6 (KJV): Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Peter, in his speech, speaks of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus, showing that Jesus is the Christ. Peter also speaks of the name of Jesus in his speech and also when examined by the Pharisees:
Acts 3:16 (KJV): And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Acts 4:9-12 (KJV): 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved
The subject of the Name of Jesus Christ is a large subject and I would like to emphasise that Jesus’ death and resurrection was representative. We also differ on who Jesus Christ really was, and some of these things were discussed in “The Trinity” thread. There has been a shift from the Bible teaching concerning the humanity of Jesus, and that Jesus is the Son of Man, and the Son of God because God is His Father, to a wrong belief that Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity.

Another aspect of Peter’s speech is found in the following:
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (or restoration) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
This part of Peter’s speech gives some detail of the second portion of the gospel, the things concerning the Kingdom of God. Peter speaks of the return of Jesus from heaven, the times of refreshing and the times of restoration that will accompany this Second Coming. Peter also states that these future events are the subject matter spoken of by all the OT prophets. It is probable that Peter quoted from some of these prophets, and these speak of the Kingdom of God upon the earth, when Jesus will sit on the throne of David, ruling over Israel and the nations from Jerusalem. A few of the passages that could be considered are Isaiah 2:1-5, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2:44, Zechariah 14, and there are many others.

My first thread when I joined in 2005 was on “Psalm 72 – The Coming New World Order” and this Psalm clearly speaks of Christ’s future reign upon the earth. I also started another thread on this subject, “The Promises to Abraham – the Promise of the Land”, and this shows that part of the New Covenant involves the promise of the land, when the meek shall inherit the earth. I am suggesting that the Things concerning the Kingdom of God is an important element of the Gospel. We most probably also differ on what the titles “Lord” and “Christ” represent. Acts 2 emphasises the death and resurrection of Jesus and that he has now been exalted to become both “Lord” and “Christ”. He is “anointed” as Prophet, Priest and King, and Yahweh, God the Father has now appointed him “lord” over all creation, the “all things” of Psalm 8.

I question whether the portion of the Gospel called “the things concerning the Kingdom of God” is preached today, or held as important or necessary, especially amongst those who seem to emphasise heaven or hell at death. Possibly the Baptists of today have moved away from the faith of the earlier Baptists. For example the following is part of the Confession of Faith by Baptists in 1660:

Clause xxii: “That the same Lord Jesus who shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs Acts 1: 3, which was taken up from the Disciples and carried up into Heaven Luke 24: 51, shall so come in like manner as he was seen go into Heaven Acts 1: 9-11, and when Christ who is our life shall appear, we shall also appear with him in glory Col. 3: 4. For then shall he be King of Kings and Lord of Lords Rev. 19: 16, for the Kingdome is his and he is the Governour among the nations Ps. 22: 28, and king over all the earth Zech. 14: 9, and we shall reign (with him) on the earth Rev. 5: 10. The kingdomes of this world (which men so mightily strive after here to enjoy) shall become the Kingdomes of our Lord and his Christ Rev. 11: 15.”

I could not find any reference in this document to a belief in heaven and hell at death. Those who believe the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ and are baptised will be saved. All others will suffer death, many the first death, and some the second death.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,
I appreciate your response, but I do not read into Psalm 73 the concept of an immortal soul.

Trevor you are nice guy, but it is worthless to interact with you in any meaningful way simply because you come to the forum and any text of scripture with your mind already made up with what you will believe and not believe REGARDLESS of the evidence. It does not matter what evidence or how strong the evidence is presented that exposes your beliefs to be absolute heresies, you simply ignore it.

Your response will always be the same "Greetings again......I appreciate your response, BUT I do not....."

It is a complete waste of time to discuss anything with you.

 

[DHK]

Greetings again DHK others,
The above was my response to DHK’s request for my definition of the gospel. Perhaps this was not detailed enough to gain a response. Also I would be interested in your definition of the gospel. I saw a sign yesterday on a main street and at a quick glance it said “The Gospel”, and then I think it was stating at least part of 1 Corinthians 15:1-3.

Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Luke in his record of Philip’s preaching to the Samaritans considered it sufficient to state that Philip “preached Christ unto them” Acts 8:5, and the Samaritans believed Philip’s preaching of the gospel and were baptised Acts 8:12. The gospel is defined here as “the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ”.

That was a statement of what was done. It was not a definition.

So the Gospel is not only Christ died for our sins and incorrectly we will go to heaven if we believe in him, or hell if we do not believe in him.

Where have you incorrectly deduced that from?
[FONT=&quot]John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.[/FONT]
--everlasting live vs. everlasting condemnation. Death vs. life. Heaven. vs. Hell.
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Looking at Acts 3 there is an example of some of the details that the Apostles preached. In part of the message preached, Peter speaks of the things concerning the name of Jesus Christ. Firstly the lame man was healed by Peter in the name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 3:6 (KJV): Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

The above verse shoots holes in your theology. It was not in the name of Christ. Look more carefully:
In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
The word "name" is simply identifying the person. There is no supernatural and/or magical power in saying a name. The name of Christ represents the person who accomplished the work of atonement on the cross.

Peter, in his speech, speaks of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus, showing that Jesus is the Christ. Peter also speaks of the name of Jesus in his speech and also when examined by the Pharisees:
Acts 3:16 (KJV): And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Acts 4:9-12 (KJV): 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved

"Name" refers to the person, the person of Christ.

The subject of the Name of Jesus Christ is a large subject and I would like to emphasise that Jesus’ death and resurrection was representative.

On this board DHK is my name. It doesn't represent my work, as you are inferring. It represents me as a person. The same is true of the name of Christs. It represents the person of Christ. It tells us who he is.

We also differ on who Jesus Christ really was, and some of these things were discussed in “The Trinity” thread.

Jesus Christ is the second person of the triune Godhead--co-eternal, co-existent with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit--is God, has been God from all eternity, and will be God throughout all eternity. He never gave up his deity. He was the God-man on earth.
Any other view is heresy.

There has been a shift from the Bible teaching concerning the humanity of Jesus, and that Jesus is the Son of Man, and the Son of God because God is His Father, to a wrong belief that Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity.

The Bible is absolute, not a book of relative thoughts. It has always taught that Christ is the Son of God, the second person of the trinity. He is the incarnate Son of God, God come in the flesh. Why do you think people celebrate Christmas? What purpose does it have for most evangelical Christians? Please explain.

I am suggesting that the Things concerning the Kingdom of God is an important element of the Gospel. We most probably also differ on what the titles “Lord” and “Christ” represent. Acts 2 emphasises the death and resurrection of Jesus and that he has now been exalted to become both “Lord” and “Christ”. He is “anointed” as Prophet, Priest and King, and Yahweh, God the Father has now appointed him “lord” over all creation, the “all things” of Psalm 8.

Isa.43:10,11 The Jehovah of the OT is the Christ of the NT.
Christ is God.

I question whether the portion of the Gospel called “the things concerning the Kingdom of God” is preached today, or held as important or necessary, especially amongst those who seem to emphasise heaven or hell at death. Possibly the Baptists of today have moved away from the faith of the earlier Baptists. For example the following is part of the Confession of Faith by Baptists in 1660:
I could not find any reference in this document to a belief in heaven and hell at death.

You probably didn't want to.

Those who believe the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ and are baptised will be saved.

That statement is heresy.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again DHK,

That was a statement of what was done. It was not a definition.

It is a statement in summary form of what Philip preached and what the Samaritans believed. A similar statement using the same terms is stated concerning the preaching of Paul in Rome in Acts 28. Notice in both places the expression “the things”, giving the impression that there were many details relating to the Name of Jesus Christ, and many details relating to the Kingdom of God. Acts 2, 3, 8 and 13 is where Luke records some of the details that the Apostles and Evangelists gave in their speeches. Thus these terms are a definition or summary of the range and detail of the gospel.

Where have you incorrectly deduced that from?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--everlasting live vs. everlasting condemnation. Death vs. life. Heaven. vs. Hell.
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

I do not deduce heaven and hell from the quotations above.

The above verse shoots holes in your theology. It was not in the name of Christ. Look more carefully:
In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
The word "name" is simply identifying the person. There is no supernatural and/or magical power in saying a name. The name of Christ represents the person who accomplished the work of atonement on the cross.

"Name" refers to the person, the person of Christ.

On this board DHK is my name. It doesn't represent my work, as you are inferring. It represents me as a person. The same is true of the name of Christs. It represents the person of Christ. It tells us who he is.

Biblical names, especially those selected by God, represent not only the person but God’s purpose for them and in them.
Matthew 1:21 (KJV): And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jesus is the NT equivalent of Joshua, Yah-oshea, Yah’s salvation or He will be Saviour.

Jesus Christ is the second person of the triune Godhead--co-eternal, co-existent with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit--is God, has been God from all eternity, and will be God throughout all eternity. He never gave up his deity. He was the God-man on earth.
Any other view is heresy.

I am willing to wear that label rather than agreeing with your definition. I do not want to repeat the discussion that was held in “The Trinity” thread.

The Bible is absolute, not a book of relative thoughts. It has always taught that Christ is the Son of God, the second person of the trinity. He is the incarnate Son of God, God come in the flesh. Why do you think people celebrate Christmas? What purpose does it have for most evangelical Christians? Please explain.

There must be a range of views on Christmas, but the idea shared most is that it was the birth of Jesus, the Christ or Messiah. I personally do not think Jesus was born on December 25th. Could you also explain the “mas” portion of Christmas? This reminds me of the Catholic Mass that is held at midnight on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day.

Isa.43:10,11 The Jehovah of the OT is the Christ of the NT.
Christ is God.

I believe that God the Father is Yahweh, and Jesus is the Son of God. I have attempted to explain the quotation of Isaiah 45 in Philippians 2 in The Trinity thread and this helps to explain the relative positions of Jesus and His Father and the language of Isaiah in these chapters.

You probably didn't want to.

That clause was part of a larger document and it is contained in the book “Baptist Confessions of Faith” by WL Lumpkin 1959. I purchased the book at a 2nd hand bookshop run by a friendly Baptist. Admittedly I have not read the book in detail, but I am interested in some of the developments and changes over the years. My impression is that some of the Anabaptists had different views on some of these subjects.

That statement is heresy.

As above.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[DHK]

To sum up Trevor's beliefs (unless he clarifies it otherwise)
1. He denies the trinity.
2. He denies the deity of Christ.
3. He believes in baptismal regeneration as a means of salvation.
4. He denies the eternal damnation of the wicked--a denial of heaven and hell.

In light of the above fundamentals of the faith, and Trevor's unbelief in them it is proper and right to label such as a "heretic."

 

[steaver]

To sum up Trevor's beliefs (unless he clarifies it otherwise)
1. He denies the trinity.
2. He denies the deity of Christ.
3. He believes in baptismal regeneration as a means of salvation.
4. He denies the eternal damnation of the wicked--a denial of heaven and hell.

In light of the above fundamentals of the faith, and Trevor's unbelief in them it is proper and right to label such as a "heretic."

Sounds just like Jehovah Witness cult.