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Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah prophesied 700 years before the birth of Christ.
Christ was not called a son before his birth. The prophecy concerning him is that a child will be born and a son will be given. That is the meaning here.
And when this son comes then these are his titles, that is who He is:
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Notice how the Son is the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father.
He is God, Deity, and came as God in the flesh. (John 1:14,18).

 

Greetings again DHK,

I appreciate your response. I believe that Jesus became the Son of God at his birth because God was his Father Luke 1:35, and in a sense I agree with your comments, but you seem to be giving support to a whole different framework of ideas to my position.

Perhaps my framework of understanding is not clear from what I have stated in this thread and more especially in the Trinity thread. It would difficult to summarise here, except to mention that it is to some extent covered in the Trinity thread on Page 4 Post #37, Page 5 Post #41 where I briefly presented my understanding of the development of the Yahweh Name.

Another framework of understanding is the context of Isaiah’s prophecy and its partial fulfillment in the life of Hezekiah. Many of the prophecies in Isaiah can be properly understood when we see this partial fulfillment in Hezekiah, as a shadow of the fullness in Christ including Christ’s sufferings and victory over sin and all its effects.

My brief response to Isaiah 9:6 using these two frameworks, is that when we find language that speaks of a Theophany, this does not necessitate that God the Father Himself is literally upon the earth, but God the Father is manifested in and through individuals and circumstances. The greatest of these manifestations is in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Such titles as Immanuel, The Mighty God and the Everlasting Father do not say that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, but that God the Father is revealed in and through Jesus, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

But of course it would "seem" to you that you went to heaven today - because in the dormant state you speak about - there is no passage of time there is no awake sense of "waiting" or "sleeping". So then the question is "iif you should suddenly find yourself at the resurrection -- which one would it be?" - to put this in terms that fit the Bible statements related to your statement above.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In John 1 - Jesus is the Creator of all.
in Col 1 - Jesus is the Creator of all - He created all - He sustains all and they are made "through and for Him"

In Rev 14:7 "Worship Him who created the heavens and the earth and the seas and springs of waters" -- Jesus.

There are a number of "God alone" texts in the OT describing attributes of God that He says He alone possesses -- and all of them - Christ claims to have.

 

Greetings BobRyan,

I appreciate your participation , but I find your statement above confusing. Firstly from previous contact I assume you are an SDA and do not believe in an immortal soul that goes to heaven immediately at death. But SDAs believe in going to heaven at the return of Christ. In contrast I do not believe in going to heaven after the resurrection, but as stated, I believe that after the resurrection and judgement that the faithful will inherit the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. This inheritance is part of the promises to Abraham concerning the land Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:16,26-29, and the promises to David concerning his throne being at Jerusalem 2 Samuel 7:12-16, Isaiah 2:1-4, Jeremiah 3:17 and many other verses. If I have misunderstood you here, could you please clarify?.

Psalm 8 shows that Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator, not Jesus. I have briefly responded to John 1 in this thread and “The Trinity” thread. I do not believe that Jesus is “The Word” in John 1:1. I responded to Colossians 1 in “The Trinity” thread Page 7 Post #69, but this was using someone else’s explanation.

I was disappointed that you cut off the first part of the verse and I would apply the second part of the verse to God the Father also. Proof : Psalm 8.
Revelation 14:7 (KJV): Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

I agree, because God the Father has given these to Jesus. God is a shepherd, Jesus also is a shepherd. I assume you will quote more specific titles or attributes. This also is God manifestation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Is jesus worshiped in the Bible or not?
ONLY God can accept that, did not jesus do also?

And Jesus was eternally the Son, so there never was any time that God the Son was not alive, as he and the Father and the Spirit are all God!

 

John 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

I don't think anything could possibly convince this guy that Jesus is Jehova God in the flesh.

Even if there was a passage that said Jesus Christ is Jehova, he would simply explain it away by saying that "Really this means Jesus Christ is the fulness or image of Jehova, but is not Jehova himself."

This is called UNBELIEF and twisting the plain meaning of scriptures.

 

even the angels are not worshipped.

Only Jehova can rightfully accept worship.

if Jesus in not God than he has no business accepting people's worship, which he did.

Jesus is God plain and simple!

 

[FONT=&quot]Mark 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
--This is a key point in this event. He forgave this man's sins instead of healing him.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mark 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
--They were orthodox and correct in their thinking. If he was not God, and only human, he had no authority to forgive sins. ONLY GOD can forgive sins. This is key. God alone can forgive sins.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Mark 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

For Christ, God in the flesh, the miracle of healing wasn't any more difficult than the miracle of forgiving. He could do both. He was God. He demonstrated his power to forgive by his power to heal. No other man could heal and do miracles as he did. Only God could do those miracles. His miracles demonstrated his deity, that he indeed had the power to forgive--the power that only God has. Christ is God.
[/FONT]

 

IF Jesus was not fully God, then His death would have been worth nothing for salvation, as only God can atone for sins of the entire World..

 

Greetings again Yeshua1 and DHK and greetings Jordan Kurecki,

I appreciate all of your comments and without quoting them all, they mainly dwell on Jesus being worshiped, his ability to do miracles and forgive sins and John 8:58 compared with Exodus 3:14.

In brief response to these, God gave Jesus the power to do miracles and authorised him to forgive sins.
Acts 2:22 (KJV): Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
There is no hint in the above that Jesus performed these miracles because Jesus was God the Son, but the one God, the Father, did these miracles in and through Jesus, thus showing his approval of Jesus. God has also given Jesus the authority to forgive sins.

Looking at your quotations and your comment:

In the normal realm of things, man does not have the power to forgive sins, only God. When Jesus forgives sins, does he claim to be God? Is he rightfully able to forgive because he is God? Rather notice above in Mark 2:10 Jesus uses the title “the Son of Man”. An important source of this title is from Psalm 8:1,3-8 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Here is Yahweh, God the Father, Lord of heaven and earth, giving birth to the Son of Man, Jesus, who was made lower than the angels. Then Yahweh, God the Father crowns Jesus with glory and honour, as King-Priest, sets him as Lord over the creation, and puts all things under his feet. Part of this exaltation is to make Jesus as Judge and Ruler and able to discern the hearts and minds of man, and to forgive them their sins. He is able to forgive sins because he is “The Son of Man” of Psalm 8. No other “man” has this ability or authority.

I have detailed my understanding of the “I AM” passages of John’s Gospel in “The Trinity” thread Page 15 Post 148 – there has been no reasonable response to this post. I have discussed Exodus 3:14 claiming that the correct meaning of ehyeh asher ehyeh is I will be who I will be as per the margin of the RV and RSV, and also given an explanation of the development of the Yahweh Name in “The Trinity” thread Page 4 Post 37 and page 5 Post 41– again there has been no reasonable response to these posts.

If I could try to illustrate two views.
The Trinitarian View
God the Father -------------------------------------------------------------- God the Father
God the Holy Spirit -------------------------------------------------------- God the Holy Spirit
God the Son ---------- |..............................---------------------- God the Son
.................................| ............................|.
.................................| ............................|
.................................| ............................|
............Jesus as a babe --------------------- Jesus at resurrection


One God the Father, Jesus is the Son of God
God the Father -------------------------------------------------------- God the Father
.................................. .|.............................|------------ The Son of God,
God the Father descends...|.............................| seated at the right hand of God
By means of the Holy Spirit.|............................|
.....................................|............................|
God with us in the form of ..--------------------- Jesus at resurrection
Jesus as a babe, the Son of God
because God was His Father, by means of the Power of the Holy Spirit Luke 1:35.

I do not accept the word “Jehova” as I believe the true representation of YHWH is Yahweh. If you consider my explanation of the Yahweh Name, as “I will be who I will be” or “He who will be” then you may understand that I believe that Jesus is Yahweh, and that Yahweh has become Jesus. What I cannot accept is that God the Son somehow lost all his Divine attributes when he became a babe, and then some time later recovered these attributes so that he could heal and forgive sins. The early records of Matthew, Luke and John do not speak of this shrinking of God the Son into a babe, but speak of the birth and development of the Son of God – refer Matthew 1:20-23, Luke 1:30-35, 2:40,52, John 1:14. During his ministry he was of one nature, human, but but he was also Yahweh, God in the flesh. After his exaltation he is Yahweh, God in the Spirit. The greatest and clearest expression is that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Jesus needs to be worshipped because he is the Son of God, and this redounds to the glory of God the Father as Philippians 2:11 reveals, as discussed earlier. The ultimate purpose of God is that the earth will be filled with God’s glory Numbers 14:21 and then God will be all and in all 1 Corinthians 15:28, thus fulfilling the Yahweh Name.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

was Jesus adopted by God as his son, or else was it the father Himself becoming Jesus?

 

Greetings again Yeshua1,

Neither of the above. God the Father was the father of the Jesus, while Mary was his mother.
Luke 1:30-35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

In my exposition of the Yahweh Name I attempted to show that the language of the Scriptures speak of Yahweh as being “He who will be”, and the greatest example of this is Jesus. Also 1 Corinthians 15 shows the completion of this process, when God becomes ALL and in ALL.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

What do you believe God is going to do with all of these Christ followers who worship His Christ as God? Will this be forgiven?

 

Was/is Jesus God Himself becoming flesh and dwelling among us then?

 

Greetings again Yeshua1 and steaver,

Not in the same sense that I assume you claim. We both may use the same Scripture and understand this differently. Jesus’ connection with God is best explained by saying that our Lord Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God by birth through Mary, by his moral character, he was full of grace and truth, and by his resurrection from the dead. He is now seated at the right hand of the one God the Father.

I think we discussed this in “The Trinity” thread, which was initially your thread. I personally believe these things are in God’s hands. For my part I seek to examine and refresh these things on a continual basis, and seek to grow in that which is true and right. If someone rejects the clear testimony of Jesus, then these things will be in God’s hands. I quoted John 12 in “The Trinity” thread, but limited even this to almost being fully taught directly by Christ. The latter part of the chapter is interesting in this regard, starting with the visit of the Greeks.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

That much is true and I agree with it.

And after the 1000 years then that kingdom will also be on Earth

in Christ,

Bob

 

It wold need to address both Getting saved - (Eph 2:8-10, Rom 5:1-3) and also staying saved (Matt 18, Gal 5:4, Romans 11, 1Cor 9, Phil 3)

in Christ,

Bob

 

In Matt 22 "God is not the god of the dead" is an argument used by Christ pointing to soul sleep - and the fact that it is only because of the future resurrection that God can in any way claim to be the God of Abraham after Abraham dies. This is Christ's own argument.

And Paul of course refers to all the saints who have died as "the Dead in Christ" and also "those who have fallen asleep" -- in 1Thess 4.

in Christ,

Bob