Featured How To Get To Heaven When You Die

In Phil 2 we are told that prior to his birth on earth Christ was "in the form of God" and then on earth in the "form of man".

Fully God - and fully man - as a result.

Col 2 - in God the Son "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form" --

Col 1 also has Christ as the creator of all things

And Rev 14:6-7 says to "Worship Him who created the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water".

He is indeed the 2nd person of the Godhead.

in Christ,

Bob

 

So who is rejecting the clear teaching of Jesus Christ? You or I? How can anyone know for sure they will be saved?

 

Romans 8:14-16

1 Cor 6:4-13

 

Greetings again Bob and steaver,

Bob, I have not responded to your 4 Posts in the other active thread, partly time constraints, but also because of other responsibilities and interests.

I recognise that this is the SDA position, but I disagree as I believe that the Kingdom of God will soon be set up on earth at Christ’s return.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Daniel 2:35 (KJV): Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Micah 4:1-8 (KJV): 1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV):1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV): 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The elements underlined above exclude the SDA position.

Do you superimpose this interpretation of Philippians 2 when you read Luke 1:35? When I read Luke 1:35 it teaches me a different narrative, in that God the Father was the father of Jesus, and Mary was his mother and for this reason Jesus was to be called the Son of God. You also misquote Philippians 2 – it does not say “form of man” but “the form of a servant” and a Trinitarian could seek to bypass the significance of this. I have previously briefly discussed Philippians 2.

Jesus was the fulness of the Deity in the flesh, but he was not God the Son reduced to a man. I gave a brief response to Colossians 1 in another thread.

I responded to your quotation of Revelation 14:6-7, and I repeat, I am dispapointed in the way you have chopped verse 7 in half. I believe v7a and v7b are both speaking of God the Father.

That is both your problem and mine. Firstly, let God be the Judge, and secondly let us both seek to respond to all the influences and teaching of the Scriptures. Perhaps John 12 does not speak to you with respect to this aspect, and I recommend this to you.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Is Jesus just as much God as the father, and is the Holy Spirit God?

 

Greetings again Yeshua1,

Instead of answering your question directly, the following is my understanding of the relationship, present and future, between the One God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God. I will let you draw your own conclusions from these Scriptures.

Paul states that there is One God, the Father. Jesus our Lord has been exalted after his resurrection and is now seated at the right hand of God.
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

God the Father will shortly send Jesus back to the earth to usher in times of refreshing and restoration of all things as spoken by all the holy prophets.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This second coming of Jesus will usher in the 1000 year reign of Christ upon the earth, sitting upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. At the end of the 1000 years Jesus will return the kingdom to the Father, and he himself will be subject to the Father, and then the One God the Father will be all and in all.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28 (KJV):25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

The OT and Zechariah the father of John the baptizer predicts a glorious future for Israel that does not reject the Messiah.

But having free will - Israel chose to reject the Messiah instead of that wonderful outcome - they fall. That good scenario is depicted in the two texts you provide above.

Romans 9 says that these promises will not simply be utterly wiped out - but rather will be fulfilled in the church age - and indeed in this case after the 1000 years.

God will still setup the New Jerusalem on earth after the 1000 years as Rev 21 points out. And He will reign on earth - first raising all the wicked in the Rev 20 second resurrection - destroying them in the lake of Fire then making the New Heavens and New Earth of Rev 21.

All of these describe the ultimate scenario where God's kingdom is established on earth after the 1000 years.

Matt 24 "immediately AFTER the great tribulation .. He will send forth His angels to gather His saints from the four winds of heaven"

Rev 20:4-5 "the FIRST resurrection" is the one that starts the 1000 year clock.

1Thess 4 "the DEAD in Christ rise FIRST" --- and that happens at the FIRST resurrection.

And as Rev 19 points out - "the rest were slain" - at that great 2nd coming event where the "dead in Christ rise FIRST" - all the wicked are slain and the righteous living, and the righteous dead are raise and raptured to heaven (1Thess 4).

The saints and Christ are in heaven for that entire 1000 years.

And as the OT points out - the earth is entirely desolate for that 1000 years - no wicked, no living human. "I looked and behold I saw no man".



in Christ,

Bob

 

Phil 2 makes the case as follows prior to His incarnation He is "in the form of God", he "emptied Himself" (NASB) and "taking the form of a bondservant" -- in the "appearance as a man"

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (NKJV)

NASB

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

John 1 "no one has seen the Father at any time" -- all the OT appearances of God - are in fact God the Son

in Christ,

Bob

 

I shall try not to disappoint you when it comes to Rev 14.

Col 1 and John 1 place Christ as the Creator of all

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.



Rev 14:6-7 says to worship the one who did all of that creating.
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”


The judge is the Son.
And He is the one that "Made" all things according to John 1 and Col 1.


John 5
22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

My point is not to exclude God the Father or diminish role - my point is that these texts include Christ at the highest level.

 

Greetings again Bob,

I appreciate your responses. We have a different view of the two prophecies, Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-8. Isaiah 2 speaks of “the Last Days”, and this is a prophecy that is firstly speaking to us, and needs to be understood in today’s context – we are in the Last Days. The term the “Last Days” does not fit the SDA view of a time after 1000 years in Heaven. Will there still be “swords” that are left over from 1000 years ago? Are the saints to be divided into nations, when they return from heaven according to the SDA view? Will these nations then go up to Jerusalem to learn God’s ways after being instructed in heaven for the previous 1000 years? The SDA view does not fit the detail. Jesus is coming to judge, to cleanse, to restore, to heal, and not to destroy. We are approaching the 70th Anniversary of the inscription of Isaiah 2 in the UN building. Only God will achieve this peace in the Last Days, as we see the ME spiraling out of control.

Yes, it is true that Israel rejected their Messiah and their present return to the Land is in unbelief of Jesus as their Messiah. But Isaiah 2 speaks of events that will soon happen, where judgement will come on Israel and the nations, including the earthquake mentioned in Isaiah 2. The outcome will be the conversion of a large remnant of the Jews from the nation of Israel and the overthrow of the armies of the nations that invaded Israel. There will be the conversion of the instruments of war into agricultural instruments, butter not guns, and the beginning of the Kingdom of God, with Christ reigning on the throne of David in Jerusalem. There are many parallel prophecies Ezekiel 38, Joel 3, Daniel 11:40-45, Zechariah 14, Revelation 16:12-16 and others that all speak of the same events, giving additional information. The very language of Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 anticipate this scene of judgement and purging, not utter destruction and burning.

Also Isaiah’s prophecy anticipates the rejection by Israel of their Messiah. Isaiah’s vision and call in Isaiah 6 is a pattern for the ministry of the Lord, and this teaches that as a result of Isaiah’s and Christ’s teaching and ministry Israel’s heart would be hardened, and they will reject their Messiah Isaiah 6:9-10, Isaiah 53, John 12:37-41. The prophecies of Isaiah, which speak so eloquently of the future peace and prosperity of Israel, are intertwined with the rejection and the suffering of the Messiah at the hands of the Jews.

The immediate context of Micah 4 is the opposite of what you are claiming. It does not say that if Israel accepted their Messiah that Micah 4 would result. Micah prophesies that Israel would be overthrown, and this occurred in AD70 because they had rejected their Messiah. Micah gives the reason for the judgement from 3:8-11, but the result is:
Micah 3:12 (KJV): Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.
Micah then says in Micah 4:1 “But …”. In other words despite the events of AD70, the Kingdom will ultimately be established in Jerusalem in the Last Days. The other additional feature of Micah 4 is that it also tells us that Israel will be regathered after AD70, and note they had been “cast off” and “driven out”, again this is because they had rejected their Messiah.
Micah 4:6-8 (KJV): 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

You can only reach this conclusion by ignoring all the details of so many of the prophecies. One of the favourite SDA quotes is the one you give above, perhaps even used exclusively as the only explanation of why you cancel all the other prophecies. This prophecy must first be understood in its original application. It is using poetical language speaking primarily of the invasion of Israel by Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, not the complete destruction or desolation of the earth at Second Coming:
Jeremiah 4:23-29 (KJV): 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. 29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Greetings again Bob,

I have previously suggested that “form of God” and “form of a bondservant” represent the disposition of mind that Jesus showed as a man. Despite being born Son of God, he humbled himself and became a Servant, even to the death of the Cross. The temptation of Jesus is an example of the humility of Jesus, as in each case the appeal was “If thou be the Son of God”. At the heart of the Fourth Servant Song of Isaiah is an expression that explains “he emptied himself”:
Isaiah 53:12 (KJV): Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
He did not grasp at equality with “Elohim” as did Adam and Eve Genesis 3:5,22.

How do you understand Luke 1:35? Do you read your interpretation of Philippians 2 into Luke 1:35, or do you accept the simple language and meaning of Luke 1:35? In your view, comparing what is stated in Luke 1:35, what part did God the Father and God the Holy Spirit play in reducing God the Son into the womb of Mary? And why is God called “the Father” and Jesus called “The Son of God”?

Did God the Son, when he was in the womb of Mary, lose all his Divine attributes, for example knowledge, power, immortality? When he was growing as a child, did he have all of his Divine attributes, and how do you understand the following:
Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
In other words, when did God the Son, if he in some way lost or put aside his Divine attributes, receive these Divine attributes again?
.
I share with the SDAs the view that man is mortal and does not possess an immortal soul. But what is the position of the SDAs regarding the death of Jesus. Did an immortal God the Son die? Was he without all of His Divine attributes for three days and nights in the tomb? Did an immortal being become a mortal being?

Jesus’ role is a delegated authority. God the Father has “given” Jesus this power and authority.

You are misquoting Scripture by adding your interpretation:
John 1:18 (KJV): No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
This actually proves that these appearances were not God, but angels, as no one can see God and live. Scripture does not say you can see God the Son, but cannot see God the Father. You are familiar with the appearances of Gabriel and Michael in the Book of Daniel. These angels represented God – they spoke and acted on God’s behalf. The Angels are included in the “us” and “our” of Genesis 1:26 where God the Father invites the Angels to participate in the Creation of man and woman. Man was made “a little lower than the Angels” Psalm 8:5. It was an Angel that appeared to Abraham in Genesis 17:1-3,22 even speaking on God’s behalf. And it was an Angel that spoke to Moses at the burning bush in Exodus 3, again speaking on God’s behalf.

The Angels stand in God’s presence and minister, while Jesus the Son of God is seated at God the Father’s right hand, and although he was made lower than the Angels, he is now exalted above the Angels.
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Actually, it is no problem for me. I know for certain that I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. I know this by the Spirit of Jesus Christ who has indwelled me. I have no doubt for I have a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ living in me. If you do not have this personal knowledge Trevor, you need to ask Jesus to help you see, but if you refuse to seek the truth through prayer to Jesus, He will not be revealing any truth to you. For Jesus is the only pathway to Truth. You can attempt to understand the scriptures by your own humanly limited understanding, but you will not comprehend any of it until you a born-again, which means having Jesus Christ enter into you and dwell as one with your spirit.

 

Greetings again steaver,

Despite your absolute conviction, and this presupposes that all or most of what I profess is error, "How can one stop believing in that which they have personal knowledge of is an absolute truth?"

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Are you a gnostic? There is no truth apart from God's Word. If what Steaver or I show you in the Scriptures is truth, you have no argument. You are wrong, and your beliefs are wrong. Your gnosticism is a cult. Personal knowledge apart from God's Word is dangerous and cultish.

The OT prophets made this very clear:
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--Your posts are not according to this Word. What conclusion then should we draw?

Consider:
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Who is the "true God," the one and only God? He is Jesus Christ. This verse is very forceful in proclaiming the deity of Christ, that he is not only the Son of God, but God himself. It shatters your view of God.

 

Greetings again DHK,

I appreciate your response. I answered steaver quickly and used the quotation that he has at the bottom of his page. Perhaps this was not wise. No, I am not a gnostic.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

1. My response was fair in respect to your statement:

"How can one stop believing in that which they have personal knowledge of is an absolute truth?"

The Gnostics claimed they knew truth apart from the Word of God; it was a "higher knowledge." You say you have "personal knowledge." Where does it come from?

2. Please answer the rest of my post.

 

Greetings again DHK,

Could you please refer to the last line in steaver's post to find the source of the statement. I felt that he was claiming a knowledge, and I was simply stating that I also have a knowledge. Hopefully, despite your strong objections to the things I hold dear, my understanding is based upon the Word of God, the Scriptures.

Yes I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

That is my statement which Trevor was quoting back to me DHK. The personal knowledge I am speaking of is Christ in me, Romans 8. It is personal because of regeneration. It came to me through the hearing of the Word of God.

Trevor's "knowledge" does not line up with the Word of God. He has even admitted that he does not believe Jesus Christ can actually be in a person.

 

Consider:
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Who is the "true God," the one and only God? He is Jesus Christ. This verse is very forceful in proclaiming the deity of Christ, that he is not only the Son of God, but God himself. It shatters your view of God.

Obviously your answer was no answer at all, was it?

 

Greetings again steaver and DHK,

I appreciate the clarification of your statement that I used, perhaps incorrectly. Yes I do not claim to have had a Holy Spirit type regeneration experience, but a gradual change of direction and the slow transforming effect of the word of God in my heart and mind. But I do feel strongly and with strong conviction as to the truth of the things that I have believed, and this conviction covers prophecy, aspects of the Kingdom and aspects of the Name.

In my imagination I wanted to fully discuss John 12 with you as it has gradually made a deep impression upon me in more recent years. I wanted to highlight the various characters surrounding Jesus’ statements, the two Greeks, the Apostles, the Pharisees, and the general crowd or audience. But especially I wanted to draw attention to Jesus’ words, partly in response to the Greeks, but also in response to the Jews who would not commit themselves to Jesus, despite his words and miracles. Especially also what he says is universal, and important for us to meditate upon. And then finally, Jesus’ words at the end concerning judgement. I also like the link given by John to Isaiah 6 and 53, two favourite chapters. I will leave it at that, and unless you want to expand on this in discussion, I will leave you to simply to browse this remarkable section of Scripture.

Yes it was a brief answer. Firstly I find 1 John 5:20 ambiguous to my mind. Who is the “his” in the phrase “in his Son Jesus Christ”, and is this the same person as “him” in “know him that is true” and “we are in him that is true”? So I can take the “his” and first “him” as being God the Father, but the second “him” is qualified by the phrase “even in his Son Jesus Christ”. I have not had time to consider other translations, or possible Trinitarian Commentaries (as these sometimes explain such inconsistencies better than a biased anti-Trinitarian Commentary). If you really want me to pursue a thorough explanation I will attempt this.

My original answer was based on my belief from many other Scriptures that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. But even here in 1 John 5:20 we encounter the phrase “in his Son Jesus Christ” and this teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, my original answer.

Kind regards
Trevor