Featured How To Get To Heaven When You Die

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Here is what Jamieson, Faucett and Brown say on this verse:

 

Is Jesus God in the exact same sense that the Father is?

 

As do JW's, Mormons, and rogue churches such as Jerimiah Wright's church also feel strongly and with strong conviction as to the truth of the things that they have believed. Unless such conviction comes from the Holy Spirit, it is nothing more than carnal conviction which anyone can strongly experience. Look at the JW's and Mormons, how convinced and committed they are to their beliefs which are anti-christ.

Jesus said ye must be born again. You say you have never experienced any such rebirth.

The scripture defines what this rebirth is. You reject the scripture teaching on the rebirth and make up your own.

Romans 8 is crystal clear concerning this rebirth..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."...God dwelling IN you, Christ dwelling IN you. Scripture states Christ and God as One in the same Spirit.

2Cor13:5..."Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates"...You declare you have not had any experience of Jesus Christ being IN you.

Col1:27..."To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."...by your own admission, this is still a mystery to you.

Here is the mystery you reject...

John 17:21-23...."That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me". Plus further evidence of Christ and the Father stated as One God.

It is the mystery Nicodemus could not comprehend...

John3:4...
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God...

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again...

...The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit".

...Trevor answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Romans 8:11...But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you...

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...

You Trevor, claim you have not experienced any receiving of the Spirit. I have and is why I can say....

"How can one stop believing in that which they have personal knowledge of is an absolute truth?"

The Scripture is perfectly clear concerning having the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ IN YOU. The Scripture effortlessly blends these three as One as God speaks through His holy prophets and Apostles. You can choose to stay in denial, I pray God has not already turned you over to blindness, I don't believe He has, but I do believe you are twisting the plain reading of the text. What I am not sure of is WHY??? What gain could be had to deny the obvious and reject Jesus Christ as LORD??? Only you can answer that for yourself........

 

Greetings again DHK, Yeshua1 and steaver,

I appreciate your responses. I will have a closer look at JFB on 1 John 5:20, but so far I am happy with this verse as it does say “we know that the Son of God is come” and this fits like a glove my understanding of this subject. I think I have answered your question, Yeshua1, and the rest of my posts explain some aspects of my view.

I was born again at my baptism. I appreciate your exposition, steaver, but my view of Christ within is an affectionate belief of the gospel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

And it is just that...your view. The Scripture is clear and I provided only a small portion. Christ in you is NOT an affectionate belief of the gospel. It is the Spirit of Christ in you...it is the Spirit of God in you...Romans 8.

Trevor, get wet doesn't make you born-again. Read this very, very carefully and pray God to give you eyes to see and ears to hear....

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

So one can be given eternal life in the water Baptism, apart from faith in jesus as GOD?

 

Water simply gets you wet. It cannot save. There is nothing that H2O can do; two atoms of Hydrogen put together with one atom of Oxygen has no saving power. Even Jeremiah knew that and mocked at the very suggestion of it.

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
--Water cannot wash away sins. Add soap, Jeremiah said. It still won't wash away sin. Only the blood of Christ can wash away your sin.

Your belief is not much different than the Hindus. They go each year to the polluted waters of the Ganges. There they "baptize" themselves, going into the waters believing those polluted waters thinking the holy waters of the Ganges will purify them of all their sins.
Your belief is no different.

 

Greetings again steaver, Yeshua1 and DHK,

We believe that the true gospel when affectionately believed leads to baptism, for example the Samaritans and the Ethiopian Eunuch Acts 8. This is the appointed means of a believer identifyng with the crucifixion, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. We also remember the death and resurrection of Jesus each week as suggested by Jesus by partaking of the bread and wine. Do the Baptists partake of the bread and wine? These are similar in simplicity to water H2O, actual real bread and wine, but full of meaning to a believer

Kind regards
Trevor

 

I am not entirely sure what you intend by that statement - but here is a Biblical perspective on Baptism.

In 1 Peter 3 - Peter denies that sacrament of baptism in the way that some have promoted it. He claims there that there is no such thing as being born again by the "magic touch of sacramental waters to the flesh" - rather Peter claims that what saves is "the appeal to God for a clean conscience". An appeal to God not made at all by infants... an appeal to God made only by the "believer".

But with the "sacramental waters of baptism" idea - even infants are born-again when baptized, because they can make no "appeal to God for a clean conscience" and must rely on the "magic powers" of the sacramental "waters touching the flesh" alone.

in Christ,

Bob

 

No.

By Grace you are saved through Faith, the GIFT.

:applause::applause::applause:

 

Greetings again Bob,

I appreciate your thoughts on baptism. I think that I endorse all that you have said above. I am not sure if you read my previous Post, but I was answering the idea that baptism is not effectual, partly because it involves water. I hold that baptism is only effectual if it has been as a result of the true meaning of the death and resurrection of Jesus, and that the baptism has been motivated by true faith. I do not believe there is any sanctification of the water in which a person is baptised. We often baptise in Lake Macquarie, but it is not the place or the particular water, but the meaning of being identified with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus by being buried and raised again out of the water. We do not accept pouring.

I am also very much in sympathy with the early “Swiss brethren”, some of whom were called “Anabaptists”, who were baptised and then suffered persecution from Catholics and Protestants because of their rejection of infant sprinkling.

I am interested if you have a response to my two replies to you in Posts #90 and #91.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply - I did not see the posts 90 and 91 but I will go back and read them and post a response.

Blessings,

Bob

 

As we all know they did reject Christ - and Christ is not coming back to do the first coming all over again as Heb 9 states clearly - so they missed that boat.

Yet the promises are fulfilled as Romans 9 states - in the church in the future.

There is no "promise" or "blessing" in the Bible that is of the form - getting cursed by God for being in rebellion. Such predictions are talking about a possible future but are not a promise or joy to be had irrevocably. curses in the Bible are always to be avoided.

1. Isaiah and Ezekiel write about the upcoming release from Babylon.

2. They also write about the coming Messiah and the blessing that would normally follow had Israel not rejected the Messiah.

3. They also write about end time events after the 1000 years such as the New Heavens and New Earth in Is 66 as well as the lake of Fire also found in Is 66.

4. they write about the lake of fire death of Lucifer in Is 14 and Ezek 28.

There is no way to funnel all of it into this age.

Clearly these prophets were not telling Israel that they were "doomed" to reject the Messiah. No Jews of Christ day expected that - neither did John the baptizer expect such a thing.

The Messiah was predicted to suffer but it did not have to happen as a result of the Jews rejecting the Messiah - they jumped off that cliff all by themselves.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His own received Him not".

In Romans 9 Paul deals with the fall of the Jews and the fact that the promises are no longer possible for the literal Jewish nation -and Paul says they will be fulfilled in the Church.

I think this is a problem for the view you are describing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The text is easily fulfilled in the future - post millennial kingdom of Rev 21.

I don't know that anyone sees anything there that cannot be fulfilled in that future scenario.

I agree that this is a prediction for a future that is prior to the 2nd coming - but it is not the blessing of "beating swords" nor the blessing of "rebuking many people" that is irrevocable. having no more war and God as King even in a perfect world would be the higher order fulfillment.

Having a perfectly obedient Israel prior to the cross - and the fulfillment of John and Zachariah's prophecy would easily have allowed for that text -- but the Jews rejected it.



in Christ,

Bob

 

Dan 2, 7, 8 all describe the same scenario where the 2nd coming happens sometime after the break up of the pagan Roman empire and the time of the 1260 years of the dark ages (as Daniel 7 points out).

Christ's kingdom destroys all others at His coming - just as Dan 2 predicts.

I don't see how this helps your case.

Here again we have a future prophecy that easily fits into the future for the church as Paul describes it in Romans 9.

1. You have a future in Rev 21 where God rules over all mankind on earth - that is certain in all models.

2. and you have a "possible future" where Israel does not reject the Messiah and becomes a great kingdom on earth from which God's Law goes out - a future that the Jews rejected.


The first two scenarios are common in all models.
3. You have God rulling over a still-wicked still-rebellious mankind during the 1000 years that some have tried to put into this picture - but I think it is impossible to carve out a space for that given what we know about the 2nd coming.


in Christ,

Bob

 

The above description shows that all nations of the earth are brought under dominion of Christ at His Coming - and yet in Rev 20 after the 1000 years, after the wicked are raised to life in the 2nd resurrection -- they still choose to surround the New Jerusalem and attack it - and are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.


in Christ,

Bob

 

My attempt here is to look at each group of texts rather than trying to evaluate all texts in a single post.

 

What led us to a discussion on baptism was your comment which you stated you were born-again when you got baptized.

Why don't you show us from the Scriptures where they say being born again is when you have an affectionate love for the true gospel? And please explain what is the "true" gospel you speak of?

 

Greetings again steaver,

I suppose the term “affectionate belief” has been used within our community for many years to extend the meaning of the word “belief” to represent the full range of the Scriptural teaching. Another parallel word or complementary word is “trust”, and this conveys a resignation to God and Jesus. If I said belief of the Gospel combined with a self-resignation and trust in God, then I could equate this with the term “affectionate belief” of the true gospel.

I have already given the examples of the Samaritans and the Eunuch in Acts 8. They were baptised when they believed, and this appears to be cause and effect. The Eunuch expresses his desire to be baptised after Philip preached to him. It was not a response to a command, but a response to his belief of the gospel:
Acts 8:36-37 (KJV): 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Note in the above, Philip states “If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest”. Surely this is another definition of an affectionate belief.

As far as the need to believe the true gospel, I do not see why you question this. The Eunuch believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Also I have mentioned previously the summary of the gospel mentioned in the following:
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Thus to properly preach the true gospel is to preach Christ, and this preaching can be summarised as “the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ”.

It is the gospel preached and believed that brings the new birth:
1 Peter 1:23-25 (KJV): 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
I also connect this with being “born of water” in John 3. Note the connection of the above passage with Isaiah 40, and this enlarges the subject of what true water baptism is really teaching, and even why Jesus submitted to water baptism and his statement concerning his own baptism.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

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