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Greetings again DHK and steaver,

I believe that there is One God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Jesus after his resurrection has been made immortal, and is thus a Spirit being, even though still a man. He has been exalted and is seated at the right hand of God, his Father, in God the Father’s throne.

Baptism is a death to the old life and a resurrection to the new, but it is faith that saves, and baptism is a product of the true faith in the true gospel.

The wicked will be eternally damned, but not eternally tormented. They will die and return to the dust and this is an eternal death. I believe in heaven, as it is where God dwells. I believe in hell, as it is the grave.

I am willing to be labeled a heretic and called a member of a cult if that is how you incorrectly read Scripture. The JWs play a different tune, but when carefully examined, they are out of harmony with the Scriptures and the gospel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

That is quite a deficient view of God and of Christ, not to mention the Holy Spirit or the Trinity as a whole. Here is a much fuller definition:

We believe that the Godhead eternally exists in three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Ghost - AV) (Genesis 1:1, 26; Isa. 6:8; Psalms 45:6,7), these three are ONE Triune God working in perfect unity of thought and will (John 10:30; 1 Cor. 2:11; Romans 8:9; John 14:16, 18, 23), Who is personal, spirit, sovereign (Mark 12:29, John 4:24; 14:9; Psalms 135:6); perfect, holy (Isa. 6), infinite, and eternal in His being, holiness, love, wisdom, and power (Psalm 18:30, 147:5; Deut. 33:27); absolutely separate and above the world as its Creator; yet everywhere present in the world as Upholder of all things (Gen. 1:1; Psalms 104); self-existent and self-revealing (Romans 1:20) in three distinct Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (John 5:26; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14), each of Whom is to be honored and worshipped equally as true God (John 5:23; Acts 5:3,4). Although the three Persons of the Godhead possess the same attributes and nature, the Son and the Holy Spirit sometimes assume sub-ordinate positions (John 16:14) and roles in carrying out the plans of the Godhead with respect to mankind (John 5:37, 15:26; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 2:18).

The above is orthodox, historical and what conservative Christians believe.
If you do not agree with the above you put yourself outside of historic Christianity.

Words have meanings. Do you believe that baptism is a necessary requirement for salvation? Yes or no. A simple answer is all that is needed.

And that is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

But I am not the one incorrectly reading Scripture.

 

You hold to a different Gospel and Jesus though, as your beliefs are outside those held by historical Christianity!

By what basis are you confident that God has saved you, and that you have passed from death unto spiritual life then?

 

Greetings again DHK and Yeshua1,

My answer was meant to be very brief. I feel that I have participated sufficiently concerning this subject in “The Trinity” thread, and the result was that the two sides were presented, but little progress was made. I appreciate the Trinity definition that you have given, but I could suggest that there is no mention that Jesus is the Son of God. I also question the use of 1 Corinthians 8:6 at the end of the definition. For my part I believe that there is One God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. My starting verse would be 1 Corinthians 8:6, but used in a different way than in your definition. The following also are a few of the verses that I would use to support the Scriptural teaching that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Romans 1:1-4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The only simple answer that I am prepared to give is that we are saved by faith and that faith and baptism are one process, cause and effect. All else is in God’s hands. In our fellowship, we fellowship those that have believed the gospel of the kingdom and name and have been baptised into the death and resurrection of Christ. Our Sunday School scholars and interested friends attend any or all meetings, but are not in full fellowship. Many Sunday School scholars are baptised in their late teens onwards. When a person fully and affectionately believes the gospel they seek to be identified with the death and resurrection of Christ. This is the environment and result of the teaching of the gospel in our meetings. A sister meeting with strong family links with our meeting are conducting three teenage baptisms DV next Thursday, and it is anticipated that many Young People will hear their confessions of their belief in the gospel of the kingdom and name and then witness their baptism, possibly in Lake Macquarie, NSW.

You and DHK have used the expression “historic Christianity” and “historical Christianity”. I have severe doubts that modern Protestant Christianity is the same as that taught by Christ and the Apostles. To me there is nothing greater than a simple, affectionate belief of the gospel, and allowing this to direct my life, waiting, and looking for the return of Jesus. As far as personal doubts, I consider the light of these things to be shining brighter every day.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Is Jesus Fully God though, just as much God as the father?
{Very God of very God?"

And is water baptism required to get saved, are you regenerated by God in that process then?

 

Greetings again Yeshua1,

There is only one God the Father, Jesus is the Son of God.. The phrase “Very God of very God” is taken from the Nicene Creed of AD 325 and not directly from the Bible. The word “very” seems to be archaic, and is not clear. What does “Very God of very God” actually mean, including what does the “of” mean in this phrase?

It is faith that regenerates. It is the Gospel that is the power of God unto salvation.
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

the Apostle John made it very clear that Jesus was seperate person from God the father, and yet shares with Him ALL the fulness of deity, whatever makes God the father God makes Jesus God in same way...

Apostle paul agreed with him, why do you go against the teachings of inspired Scriptures then?

IF you deny that Jesus is God, SAME way the father is, then you cannot have the right Gospel that saves!

 

Greetings again Yeshua1,

I appreciate your response. Is this your explanation of the phrase from the Nicene Creed? I still find that phrase confusing. Is it saying “Very God of (in the sense of derived from) very God”? In other words, Jesus is Very God derived from the other Very God, God the Father. I am not sure where you draw the line with the various Creeds, and if you consider them inspired, or endorsed by the Holy Spirit. For my part in “The Trinity” thread page 18 Posts #173 and #176, I quoted from a book that showed how some of the ideas in the Nicean Creed developed from Greek philosophy. As well as discussing many passages in “The Trinity” thread, I have also quoted from John and Paul in this thread to show that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.

I believe in the Divine side of Jesus. I explained some aspects of the development of the Yahweh Name in and through Jesus in “the Trinity” thread page 4 Post #37 and page 5 Post #41.We speak of the Divinity of Jesus, and that he was Deity manifested in the flesh, and now Deity manifested in the Spirit. He was and is the Son of God, and he fully revealed the Father and the Father’s character.
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:8-9 (KJV): 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

There still seems to be a disagreement on the subject of baptism. The following indicates that baptism is the result of faith, it flows from faith, it is the fruit of faith:
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 8:30-38 (KJV):
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Note in the above that it was when the Samaritans believed, and it was the Eunuch that asked to be baptised after his belief. And note Philip and the Eunuch believed that Jesus is the Son of God. What gospel do you preach Yeshua1?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

There is only one God:
[FONT=&quot]Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.[/FONT]

 

Greetings again DHK,

Yes I agree with you, that there is only one God and Philippians 2:11 tells us that this one God is God the Father. I considered Philippians 2 in “The Trinity” thread Page 4 Post #36. As this response was short I will copy what I said at that time again below.
Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Could I suggest that you read the above carefully. It speaks of the character and work, and then the exaltation of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is now in every respect the Son of God, glorified and seated at the right hand of God the Father. If the Trinity were true, wouldn’t the verse say “to the glory of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?” But this is not the teaching of the Bible. It was God’s work in and through His Son that God the Father has accomplished. It says God has highly exalted him. Why does it not say: “God the Son resumed his position of authority back in heaven?”

The Scriptures says that God has highly exalted His Son, and asks us to bow the knee before His Son, and that this will redound to the glory of God the Father.

From memory DHK I mainly discussed with you John 10:30-36 in that thread, but also you were very emphatic in your endorsement of 1 John 5:7, even though many Trinitarians considered this passage as spurious. My only additional question regarding this that may help me to understand your emphatic endorsement is: Are you a supporter of the KJV only concept?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Paul stated to us that the father gave jesus the title of LORD, that ALl shall bow down and acknowledge him as being such...

God shares his glory with no one else, and he ALONE is to be worshipped, so when the father commands all to worship Jesus...

Either jesus is just as much God as the Father is, or God is a liar!

 

Just concern yourself with Philippians 2:6
[FONT=&quot]Philippians 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,[/FONT] ASV

[FONT=&quot]Philippians 2:6 who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God;[/FONT] Darby

(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

(ISV) In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.

It is not that He was simply "the Son of God," a title which he took when he came to earth, but deity Himself. He is equal with God, the second person of the triune Godhead--equal with God in every sense as Phil.2:6 clearly says. He shares with God equality. That is what this verse clearly says. The proper meaning cannot be denied here.

His proper appellation would be God the Word. Thus: God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit. We have that appellation in John 1:1,14.
We also have it in 1John 5. It is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word is God. The Word is deity. The Word is Christ.
"The Son of God" is simply another title to differentiate him from the Son of Man" (his name for deity from his name for humanity) while on earth, and that is all. He no longer is "the Son," but the Word eternal.

 

Greetings again Yeshua1, DHK and xfrodobagginsx,

The fact that God the Father gave Jesus the title of LORD shows that God the Father, and not Jesus is the original possessor of that title. Jesus in his role of Lord and Yahweh represents God, and when we bow the knee to Jesus it redounds “to the glory of God the Father” Philippians 2:11, not to the glory of God the Son. God the Father is not sharing his glory in an inappropriate way, most probably in the context of idols, as the other Scripture that you allude to indicates.

If you read all the different versions of Philippians 2:6 that you quoted, you will see a range of interpretation, possibly showing the different bias of each translator. I suggest that the ASV and ESV has the idea that Jesus did not grasp at equality, while Darby and ISV seem to indicate that he did not grasp at equality because he already had equality, and possibly this latter is your position. I believe that this Scripture is talking of the mind of Jesus as a man. He was born the Son of God, and in this sense he was in the form of God. He could have used his heritage to claim authority, respect, power, submission by others. Also there is a comparison with Adam and Eve who did grasp at equality with God (Elohim), refer Genesis 2:5, 22. Instead of this path of pride and defiance, Jesus humbled himself and became as a servant, and became obedient to the will of God, even unto the death of the cross. Please note that the word “form” is the same when used as “form of God” and “form of a servant”.

I do not accept that Jesus is “The Word” in John 1:1. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God by birth, moral character and by resurrection he is now fully the Son of God.

To xfrodobagginsxI: appreciate the long list of quotations and some comments that you use to support your understanding of the Trinity. Some of these, but not all, I have answered in “The Trinity” thread. I am satisfied with most of those answers in that thread and do not have the time or patience to answer the same quotations again.

The following is a quick reference list of the quotations that you raise, and I am satisfied with my response on these.
1 John 5:7, John 8:58, Exodus 3:14, Genesis 1:26, John 20:27-31.
The thread was varied and dealt with other issues, but I made a summary on Page 19 if you want an index of the passages considered.

I am prepared to fully discuss this aspect, but I will add the following two references and ask you to consider these.
Acts 2:36 (KJV):Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Matthew 11:25-27 (KJV):25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Please note that the Matthew citation is based on Psalm 8, and I have given some comments on this in The Trinity thread. Nevertheless could you also consider Psalm 8 as well as the above two citations.

I am extremely surprised that you quote many passages that speak of God the Father, and then speak of Jesus separately, for example you quote 1 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 1:2, Ephesians 1:2, Colossians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1. This is the language of the Scriptures, that there is one God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. These verses are not the language or concepts of the Trinity.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Greetings again DHK,

Reviewing the above again, I am surprised that you seem to be alluding to 1 John 5:7 which is considered to be spurious by many and possibly most Trinitarians.

Also if what you say about the title of “The Son of God”, why do the Apostles continue to call Jesus the Son of God after he has been glorified?

John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 1:1-4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

I don't believe Jesus was called the Son before Creation. He was the second person of the triune Godhead, and in John 1:1-18 known as the Word. He was not the Son until he came to earth. The "Son of God" is a title representing his deity. There is nothing wrong in using that title, even today. He is the eternal Son of God. He still is in the flesh, even today.

 

Greetings again DHK,

The difference here is that I believe that there is only one God the Father and that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that the “Word” in John 1:1 is a personification, not a person. The Word was made flesh in John 1:14, when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and Jesus was born, then developed, and then revealed the fullness of the glory of the Father, Jesus was full of grace and truth. The "Word" is given a partial personification in the following:
Psalm 33:6-9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Did Jesus receive worship?
Yes

Did he claim to be equal to the Father?
Yes

Did Paul/Peter/John/Hebrews et all ALL agree that Jesus is God in the same sense that the Father are?

Yes

Peter Paul and John also agreed that the Holy Spirit is God also, do you?

 

Greetings again Yeshua1,

I have already considered Philippians 2:11 where submission or bowing the knee to Jesus redounds to the glory of God the Father. How do you understand the following:
Revelation 3:9 (KJV): Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Could you please provide the references. How do you understand the following:
John 14:28 (KJV): Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I

This appears to be your assessment. References please.

This appears to be your assessment. References please.

Kind regards
Trevor