How to help a brother

[evangelist6589]

A brother whom almost never is in church and this has been going on for 7-8 years showed up Sunday. He claims his finances are so tight he has to work 2 jobs and every Sunday at a retail store. We spoke and I gave advice of downsizing his house, cutting the TV, phone, or car. I do not know all the details of this situation but I will say continuously missing church and only showing up once in a blue moon is not healthy and certainly I'd rather be in CC debt over the alternative.

I also suggested he be in prayer about this. The job that requires him to work Sundays is only a retail job so nothing super crucial such as in a hospital etc..

Not sure how I can help except to be in prayer. But based on the practice of Jesus and his example being in church and fellowship with the saints is very very crucial. I remember a meeting at the Calvinist church in the men's group we did a study on workaholism one week and the teachings concluded that neglecting God to stay out of debt is a far more serious issue than being in debt to start. Perhaps all I can do is be in prayer and maybe he took some of my advice to heart.

 

[annsni]

YOU are giving financial advice? Interesting.

If the man is led to work hard to pay his living expenses and he is carrying his own load, then let him. Missing church on Sunday is not ideal but really, God is the one to have to convict him on that issue. My daughters work retail as well and they have told their bosses they cannot work before 1 pm on Sunday and it's a non-negotiable. It still gives them plenty of hours that they can work - especially since Sunday morning is not really a busy time in retail. But there are times in our life that we need to buckle down and work a few jobs to pay our bills and that is not a bad thing.

 

[PreachTony]

But based on the practice of Jesus and his example being in church and fellowship with the saints is very very crucial.

Just out of curiosity, what was Jesus's example of "being in church?" I can understand the example of being in fellowship, but church is a bit different. The Gospels account for only a few times that Jesus was ever even at the Temple. If studied out, during his ministry, Jesus only appeared at the Temple about once per year.

(And yes, I am just being difficult with ya') :smilewinkgrin:

 

[evangelist6589]

Just out of curiosity, what was Jesus's example of "being in church?" I can understand the example of being in fellowship, but church is a bit different. The Gospels account for only a few times that Jesus was ever even at the Temple. If studied out, during his ministry, Jesus only appeared at the Temple about once per year.



(And yes, I am just being difficult with ya') :smilewinkgrin:

It says in the gospels "as it was his custom" and during his arrest he himself says he was teaching daily in the temple.

Besides his example one can look at the example of the Puritans whom fought zealously to be in fellowship on the Lords day.

 

[Rolfe]

YOU are giving financial advice? Interesting.

:thumbs: "Interesting" is a gentle way to say it...

 

[Rolfe]

I do not know all the details of this situation but I will say continuously missing church and only showing up once in a blue moon is not healthy and certainly I'd rather be in CC debt over the alternative.

(My bold)

The bolded part is exactly why you should not be giving financial advice. Were he to add increasing credit card debt to his predicament, what do you think his situation will be like in the future? Will you suggest that he rob his creditors by declaring bankruptcy?

Seems like a case of the blind trying to lead the blind... (I think that is the expression.)

 

[Rippon]

A brother whom almost never is in church ...

Who man, who. Drop whom altogether. It's not working for you.

 

[Don]

A brother whom almost never is in church and this has been going on for 7-8 years showed up Sunday. He claims his finances are so tight he has to work 2 jobs and every Sunday at a retail store. We spoke and I gave advice of downsizing his house, cutting the TV, phone, or car. I do not know all the details of this situation but I will say continuously missing church and only showing up once in a blue moon is not healthy and certainly I'd rather be in CC debt over the alternative.

I also suggested he be in prayer about this. The job that requires him to work Sundays is only a retail job so nothing super crucial such as in a hospital etc..

Not sure how I can help except to be in prayer. But based on the practice of Jesus and his example being in church and fellowship with the saints is very very crucial. I remember a meeting at the Calvinist church in the men's group we did a study on workaholism one week and the teachings concluded that neglecting God to stay out of debt is a far more serious issue than being in debt to start. Perhaps all I can do is be in prayer and maybe he took some of my advice to heart.

First, be in prayer.

Second, if I may suggest, find out what his schedule is, and see if you can meet with him during any possible free time to go over Sunday School lessons. Take him videos of the sermons and any other recordings that he could listen to on his own time.

If his situation is truly that he cannot attend, then you will at least have helped him remain a part of the membership, and let him know that people are concerned for him and want him to remain a part of the membership.

Otherwise, you've provided the opportunity for him to say no; which can then be pointed out to him that he doesn't really want to be part of the church, and is just using work as an excuse.
-----
Now, on another note: I know Rippon is giving you a hard time about your use of "whom" and "who" ... but he's right. You use it incorrectly most of the time. If you want to keep using whom, here's a simple trick: If you can use "him", use "whom." If you can use "he", use "who."

For example:
A brother whom almost never is in church
Him almost is never in church, or he almost is never in church?

 

[evangelist6589]

Who man, who. Drop whom altogether. It's not working for you.

Oh For the love of all. A brother who does not attend church regularly.

 

[evangelist6589]

First, be in prayer.



Second, if I may suggest, find out what his schedule is, and see if you can meet with him during any possible free time to go over Sunday School lessons. Take him videos of the sermons and any other recordings that he could listen to on his own time.



If his situation is truly that he cannot attend, then you will at least have helped him remain a part of the membership, and let him know that people are concerned for him and want him to remain a part of the membership.



Otherwise, you've provided the opportunity for him to say no; which can then be pointed out to him that he doesn't really want to be part of the church, and is just using work as an excuse.

-----

Now, on another note: I know Rippon is giving you a hard time about your use of "whom" and "who" ... but he's right. You use it incorrectly most of the time. If you want to keep using whom, here's a simple trick: If you can use "him", use "whom." If you can use "he", use "who."



For example:

A brother whom almost never is in church

Him almost is never in church, or he almost is never in church?

Good advice. I will ask the pastor if I can get in contact with him. I was going to recommend a book to read that makes a big emphasis on being in church regularly not to earn salvation but for a love of Christ being demonstrated. And yes a far bigger deal than CC debt.

 

[evangelist6589]

(My bold)



The bolded part is exactly why you should not be giving financial advice. Were he to add increasing credit card debt to his predicament, what do you think his situation will be like in the future? Will you suggest that he rob his creditors by declaring bankruptcy?



Seems like a case of the blind trying to lead the blind... (I think that is the expression.)

I disagree. Both are evil but neglecting The Lord is a far more serious matter than debt. Many these days get into debt not by choice due to medical problems (cancer) (job loss) and such and are unable to pay back. Consumer leisure debt however is another matter entirely. If at all possible pay back all your debts as the bible says "let no debt remain outstanding."

 

[Don]

I disagree. Both are evil but neglecting The Lord is a far more serious matter than debt. Many these days get into debt not by choice due to medical problems (cancer) (job loss) and such and are unable to pay back. Consumer leisure debt however is another matter entirely. If at all possible pay back all your debts as the bible says "let no debt remain outstanding."

Um...this is what you originally said in the opening post:

and certainly I'd rather be in CC debt over the alternative.

The things you've described in this latest post -- medical, job, etc. -- are not credit card debt. In fact, credit card debt best exemplifies what you yourself identify in this latest post as "leisure debt."

In other words, you've confused me. Credit card debt is most usually identified with leisure spending/debt; in one post, you say it's okay. In another post, you say the bible says let no debt remain outstanding. Please clarify your position.

 

[Rolfe]

I disagree. Both are evil but neglecting The Lord is a far more serious matter than debt. Many these days get into debt not by choice due to medical problems (cancer) (job loss) and such and are unable to pay back. Consumer leisure debt however is another matter entirely. If at all possible pay back all your debts as the bible says "let no debt remain outstanding."

(Again, my bold)

Along with what Don asked about your two statements, I would also add:
...as the Bible says "let no debt remain outstanding."
Is ignoring what Our Lord said right?

 

[annsni]

I disagree. Both are evil but neglecting The Lord is a far more serious matter than debt. Many these days get into debt not by choice due to medical problems (cancer) (job loss) and such and are unable to pay back. Consumer leisure debt however is another matter entirely. If at all possible pay back all your debts as the bible says "let no debt remain outstanding."

Who says he is neglecting the Lord? There was a time that I could not attend church at all due to babies and illnesses (seriously - one entire winter) and I hardly neglected the Lord. Instead, I listened to the message at home later in the week, did my own worship time at home, and read my Bible a LOT (while holding a sick baby).

You keep making the excuse of "not being able to pay it back" - but honestly, debt is debt. It is a PROMISE to pay that which you have taken. To not pay it back is stealing, plain and simple. Excuses won't matter to God. Better to work diligently and be a man of your word than to show up in church every Sunday yet continue to steal money from man.

 

[evangelist6589]

Um...this is what you originally said in the opening post:



The things you've described in this latest post -- medical, job, etc. -- are not credit card debt. In fact, credit card debt best exemplifies what you yourself identify in this latest post as "leisure debt."



In other words, you've confused me. Credit card debt is most usually identified with leisure spending/debt; in one post, you say it's okay. In another post, you say the bible says let no debt remain outstanding. Please clarify your position.

Sometimes one can charge these kinds of costs on CC'S just as I did years ago when I had medical issues and without insurance then. But perhaps a minority. My mistake in not clarifying.

 

[evangelist6589]

Who says he is neglecting the Lord? There was a time that I could not attend church at all due to babies and illnesses (seriously - one entire winter) and I hardly neglected the Lord. Instead, I listened to the message at home later in the week, did my own worship time at home, and read my Bible a LOT (while holding a sick baby).



You keep making the excuse of "not being able to pay it back" - but honestly, debt is debt. It is a PROMISE to pay that which you have taken. To not pay it back is stealing, plain and simple. Excuses won't matter to God. Better to work diligently and be a man of your word than to show up in church every Sunday yet continue to steal money from man.

Being sick or in jail or in the service is a entirely different manor. But choosing not to be in church because you have too big of a house or paying for a son that you assume needs to be in full time ministry yet in the process miss church every week for 8 years is not right. Was if not John Piper that said a call to non vocational ministry is just an important a call as a call to vocational ministry.

 

[annsni]

Being sick or in jail or in the service is a entirely different manor. But choosing not to be in church because you have too big of a house or paying for a son that you assume needs to be in full time ministry yet in the process miss church every week for 8 years is not right. Was if not John Piper that said a call to non vocational ministry is just an important a call as a call to vocational ministry.

How do you know this man is absolutely not in any ministry at all? What if he is ministering to his co-workers? Do you know how he spends his time? Honestly, he's a man who honors his financial obligations. Yes, sometimes we spend money on things that we don't need and we need to refigure our priorities if they are causing us to use all of our time to pay for them but at least he is working to pay his debts. I respect him for that.

 

[evangelist6589]

How do you know this man is absolutely not in any ministry at all? What if he is ministering to his co-workers? Do you know how he spends his time? Honestly, he's a man who honors his financial obligations. Yes, sometimes we spend money on things that we don't need and we need to refigure our priorities if they are causing us to use all of our time to pay for them but at least he is working to pay his debts. I respect him for that.

As do I. However a study of the Olivet Discourse does not indicate that missing service on a continuous basis to justify a bigger house or paying off debts is more important than serving The Lord and being in his house.

It was the custom of Jesus and his practice to be in the temple and we should follow his example.

I do not know all the details just what he shared with me and from that it was because he wanted a certain house and did not want to cut back on the car and or entertainment.

 

[matt wade]

What it really boils down to is that it is none of your business. If I was this guy and you came to me with your books and opinions on how I conduct my life, I'd tell you to get lost.

 

[PreachTony]

How do you know this man is absolutely not in any ministry at all? What if he is ministering to his co-workers? Do you know how he spends his time? Honestly, he's a man who honors his financial obligations. Yes, sometimes we spend money on things that we don't need and we need to refigure our priorities if they are causing us to use all of our time to pay for them but at least he is working to pay his debts. I respect him for that.

Similar to this, I was in a service one day and a young man stood up, gave his testimony, and apologized for missing so many services, as he had to work. He was just over a year into his marriage and they had an infant son. Once he was done and sat down, one of the home preachers stood up, turned and addressed the young man, and told him (in a rather spiritual manner, I might add) that his missing church because of work was okay, as God would rather him work and put food on the table and a roof over his family's head than miss work and them go hungry. You might not agree with that, but the Spirit was most definitely in what the preacher was saying. The young man took it to heart and God blessed him to find a new job a few months later which did not require Sunday work.