How to Know You are in a Heterodox Cult

[Walpole]

I don;t, I have it with the risen Christ by His Holy Spirit, not thru mere bread and wine!

But Christ said to "do this" in memory of him. The "this" involves bread and wine, which you believe are symbols. St. Paul said we have communion with this. So...how exactly do you have communion with symbols of bread and wine?

 

[Yeshua1]

But Christ said to "do this" in memory of him. The "this" involves bread and wine, which you believe are symbols. St. Paul said we have communion with this. So...how exactly do you have communion with symbols of bread and wine?

Again, you can cuddle the wine, but I prefer to have communion with the risen Lord in our midst!

 

[Walpole]

Again, you can cuddle the wine, but I prefer to have communion with the risen Lord in our midst!

Please explain how exactly you "cuddle and have communion with bread and wine?

 

[Yeshua1]

Please explain how exactly you "cuddle and have communion with bread and wine?

I just prefer to commune with risen Jesus, not those elements!

 

[Walpole]

I just prefer to commune with risen Jesus, not those elements!

So you don't "do this" in commemoration of Him after all!

Thanks for admitting that!

 

[Yeshua1]

So you don't "do this" in commemoration of Him after all!

Thanks for admitting that!

Im memorial of Him, as God is not contained in those elements!

 

[Walpole]

Im memorial of Him, as God is not contained in those elements!

1 Cor 11:23-29 ---> "For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, 'This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself."


Christianity 101 stuff here...

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Cor 11:23-29 ---> "For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, 'This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself."


Christianity 101 stuff here...

Those elements are symbols, they represent Jesus and his shed blood, but are not them Per Roman teaching, would not those !of us taking Communion and rejecting Roman teaching on it be drinking damnation unto themselves?!

 

[Walpole]

Those elements are symbols, they represent Jesus and his shed blood, but are not them

What Jesus said ---> "This is my body...this is my blood."

What Jesus DID NOT say ---> "This is a symbol of my body...this is a symbol of by blood."


What St. Paul said ---> "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself."

What St. Paul DID NOT say ---> "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will not be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord because it's just a symbol. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning that the body is just a symbol need not worry because after all, it's just a symbol."

Per Roman teaching, would not those !of us taking Communion and rejecting Roman teaching on it be drinking damnation unto themselves?!

If you came to a Catholic Mass or Orthodoxy Divine Liturgy and received communion you would be. But, since your mock service is not valid, I don't think you are culpable.

 

[Yeshua1]

What Jesus said ---> "This is my body...this is my blood."

What Jesus DID NOT say ---> "This is a symbol of my body...this is a symbol of by blood."


What St. Paul said ---> "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself."

What St. Paul DID NOT say ---> "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will not be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord because it's just a symbol. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning that the body is just a symbol need not worry because after all, it's just a symbol."





If you came to a Catholic Mass or Orthodoxy Divine Liturgy and received communion you would be. But, since your mock service is not valid, I don't think you are culpable.

Rome states that if we know what Rome teaches on Mass and Sacraments and especially Gospel, and reject that teaching, we are damned, correct?

 

[JonShaff]

How exactly can you have communion with a symbol?

Because our communion isn't with the bread and wine--it's with the Person of Christ and His People.

 

[Adonia]

Rome states that if we know what Rome teaches on Mass and Sacraments and especially Gospel, and reject that teaching, we are damned, correct?

I think God just might have some mercy on you being the all loving and all merciful deity that He is, but you will have some explaining to do concerning your rejection of certain truth's.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think God just might have some mercy on you being the all loving and all merciful deity that He is, but you will have some explaining to do concerning your rejection of certain truth's.

We reject the false teachings and doctrines of Rome!

 

[Adonia]

Because our communion isn't with the bread and wine--it's with the Person of Christ and His People.

Yet you reject the actual leaving of a part of himself for the faithful to see, to touch, and yes ponder the most momentous sacrifice the world has ever known. Sad for you, a joy for us.

 

[JonShaff]

Yet you reject the actual leaving of a part of himself for the faithful to see, to touch, and yes ponder the most momentous sacrifice the world has ever known. Sad for you, a joy for us.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.

The bread and the wine causes us to remember His Sacrificial death--"Do this in remembrance of Me." His Spirit is present in the person (the believer himself) and in the gathering. Not in the elements. The bread represents His body, which was broken for us--the wine represents the blood, which was poured out for the forgiveness of our sins. The work of Christ has already happened in completion. That's why Christ is "Seated" at the right hand of the father--his high priestly duties have been accomplished. That's also why Christ said, "It is finished." Communion does not add to the finished work of Christ--it memorializes it.

 

[Walpole]

Because our communion isn't with the bread and wine--it's with the Person of Christ and His People.

But if the Eucharist is not the actual body and blood of Christ, then it is just bread and wine you are communing with.

1 Cor 10:16 ---> "We have a cup that we bless; is not this cup we bless a participation (communicatio / κοινωνία - koinōnia) in Christ’s blood? Is not the bread we break a participation (participatio) in Christ’s body?"


---> Communion - κοινωνία (koinōnia) means: fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, intimacy

(Source)

Trying to have fellowship, association, community, communion, participation, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol is the height of idolatry because it is a false representation of who God is. It says God is but a symbol. It says it is not His body and blood. It says God is not present amongst His people. It says "He is not here". It says God is not Immanuel. It says God is Hester Panim.

 

[Adonia]

The bread and the wine causes us to remember His Sacrificial death--"Do this in remembrance of Me." His Spirit is present in the person (the believer himself) and in the gathering. Not in the elements. The bread represents His body, which was broken for us--the wine represents the blood, which was poured out for the forgiveness of our sins. The work of Christ has already happened in completion. That's why Christ is "Seated" at the right hand of the father--his high priestly duties have been accomplished. That's also why Christ said, "It is finished." Communion does not add to the finished work of Christ--it memorializes it.

That is a very good opinion given in a heartfelt manner and I respect it, I am however an orthodox believer so therefore I do not share it. I believe what orthodox Christianity (Eastern and Western) and even some mainline Protestant denominations believe about it.

We do not believe that it adds to the finished work of Christ, because that was done once and for all on the Cross. But we do believe that he wanted to leave his physical manifestation with us and that was done under the elements of bread and wine. It is the ultimate memorial - himself here on earth truly present at every Mass and with the Father in heaven at the same time.

Our communion isn't with the bread and wine either, it is with Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Walpole]

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.

The bread and the wine causes us to remember His Sacrificial death--"Do this in remembrance of Me." His Spirit is present in the person (the believer himself) and in the gathering. Not in the elements. The bread represents His body, which was broken for us--the wine represents the blood, which was poured out for the forgiveness of our sins. The work of Christ has already happened in completion. That's why Christ is "Seated" at the right hand of the father--his high priestly duties have been accomplished. That's also why Christ said, "It is finished." Communion does not add to the finished work of Christ--it memorializes it.

How does bread and wine cause you to remember his Sacrificial death?

And why would Protestants be commemorating Christ's death in their mock eucharist service if his sacrificial offering did not occur until the following day? After all, according to Protestant theology, nothing was offered on Holy Thursday. Ergo, if you believe His sacrificial offering was not until the following day on the cross, then there was nothing to memorialize in the Upper Room that evening.

 

[Adonia]

How does bread and wine cause you to remember his Sacrificial death?

And why would Protestants be commemorating Christ's death in their mock eucharist service if his sacrificial offering did not occur until the following day? After all, according to Protestant theology, nothing was offered on Holy Thursday. Ergo, if you believe His sacrificial offering was not until the following day on the cross, then there was nothing to memorialize in the Upper Room that evening.

Perhaps you should not be using the word "Protestant" in describing Baptists, because they believe that men like Martin Luther didn't go far enough as they reject a whole lot of what he believed.

Some mainline Protestant denominations do believe in the "Real Presence", but reject the idea of transubstantiation. My wife is a convert from the Lutheran faith and she told me that they always believed Christ to be present in the Eucharist.

 

[Walpole]

Perhaps you should not be using the word "Protestant" in describing Baptists, because they believe that men like Martin Luther didn't go far enough as they reject a whole lot of what he believed.

Some mainline Protestant denominations do believe in the "Real Presence", but reject the idea of transubstantiation. My wife is a convert from the Lutheran faith and she told me that they always believed Christ to be present in the Eucharist.

Good point. I'll start using Evangelicals, which I think is a better description of the modern-day Americanized version of Protestantism.

I typically find most of these Evangelicals are shocked at the things their progenitors believed. The moderns have fallen so far away from even the basic tenets of their original progenitors.