How to salvage OSAS in view of Rom 11 and 2Tim2

[DeafPosttrib]

I have reading posts argue between Bob and J.J. about 'deny Christ'.

I would like to show you a good passage does matter with the issue of deny Christ.

Matthew 19:16-30 talking about the rich man came and asked Christ, what he shall do to have eternal life.

Verse 16 - "And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have ETERNAL LIFE?"

The rich man doesn't ask Christ what he shall do to have millennial life. Because, millennial teaching was not find anywhere in the Old Testament books during Christ's time.

Rich man understoods 'eternal life' simple means there shall be everlasting life beyond death which is speak of future final destiny.

Verse 17 - "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."

Then, man asked Christ of verse 18-

"He saith unto Him, 'Which'?' He asked Christ, wanted to know which one of the commandments, that he ought to do.

Then, Christ asnwered to him; verse 18b, 19-

"Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, honour thy father and thy mother: and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Man asked Christ of verse 20 -

"All these things have I kept from y youth up: what lack I yet?"

Man told Christ, that he did keep the commandments in his youth, but he wanted to know what thing he misses of the commandment.

Then, Christ said to him of verse 21-

"If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: COME AND FOLLOW ME."

Christ told him, if he desires to be growing or being maturing, then he would go and to sell his things to the poors, so shall have rich blessings from above, and come and to FOLLOW Christ.

Christ already know that man was a wealthy have everything and his possession. He tested man's heart & his faith. Understand, Christ is omniscience means, he already know everything before things to be happened, like as before the rich man came and ask Him.

Then next verse 22-

"But when the young man heard that saying, he WENT AWAY sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

The rich man heard Christ's words, he was bitter and refuse to give up his possessions, because he do not have FAITH in Christ, he worried over his own earthy things.

Then, Christ said to disciples - verse 23-24

"Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall HARDLY enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Christ used two characters- rich man & camel. Christ knows camel's character, it is humble, easily to obey and patience all the times, no complain. Camels are in Middle East, carrying heavy load on their back, walking long journey over the desert. Camel refuses to stop or being complain for being carrying heavy load on its back during long journey in the desert during hot weather. Christ uses rich man's character, shows that he is pride, always complain over small things, easy worry over them, have no faith in God, also, being be selfish all the times.

Matt. 19:16-30 teaching us, that we must deny our own life, and come to follow Christ with faith, then shall have eternal life. This passage is a matter with eternal salvation & conditional.

I urge you to read whole context of Matthew 16:16-30, so, you will understand what Christ was talking about.

Also, Christ told his disciples, they have to forsake family, things, yield up their life, and come to follow Christ. Or, if any refuse to deny life, then cannot be Christ's disciple. That mean, if any person deny Christ(refuse come and to follow Christ) then cannot have eternal life!!!!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

Also, Christ told his disciples, they have to forsake family, things, yield up their life, and come to follow Christ. Or, if any refuse to deny life, then cannot be Christ's disciple. That mean, if any person deny Christ(refuse come and to follow Christ) then cannot have eternal life!!!!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Indeed - "deny Christ and go to heaven anyway" is not in scripture.

"Deny Christ at get millennial life anyway" is not in scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

#1 Do you admit to the obvious reference to the “Gospel” in vs 8 below?

#2 Do you admit to stated context for preaching “that they may obtain salvation” (vs 10) as having the context of “salvation and the Gospel” firmly and explicitly stated in 2Tim 2 or do you simply gloss over it?

2Tim 2
8Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,
9for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.

Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

2 Tim 2

10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

When some see that “Christ will deny us” if we make certain choices to deny Him – they respond with
“Well yeah but not so-s you would notice”
“well yeah – but that is deny in a good way”
“well maybe – but that is just if you accept the text literally”
“well yeah – but what if we pretend there is no mention of the Gospel context in 2Tim chapter 2?”

And certainly that is all “good gamesmanship – all for OSAS” but it is not exegesis – not even remotely!

Notice the words of Christ pre-cross are in full agreement with the words He gives to Paul post-cross. The eternal salvation context is also firmly established by Christ – just as we saw with Paul in 2Tim 2.

Matt 10
28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
30"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31"So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39"He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.


We see here a logical sequence. Paul starts with the role of evangelism – seeking the lost as God’s own (and not claiming to know which lost person will accept Christ and which one won’t).

He then goes to the goal and objective of evangelism – “That they ALSO may obtain salvation”. This means that the term “WE” is defined as those who like Paul ALSO accept salvation.

Paul takes the next logical step and shows that this group who “Died with Him” WILL also “Live with Him”. That is God’s purpose in saving the lost. Paul argues in Romans 6 that those who have died with Christ have died to self and to sin and must no longer LIVE in sin but must LIVE in freedom from slavery to sin.

Then Paul shows that within the SAME group “WE” we should see “endurance” and indeed there are those in that group that will endure – so “IF WE endure” we WILL reign with Him.

Notice that Paul does not say “SINCE we have died with Him and live with Him then NATURALLY we MUST endure. There is no other possibility”. Yet many believe that this unwritten statement is the “real truth” and there is no “IF WE endure” qualifier possible AS IF failure were even an option.

By taking that bias from their tradition they negate the force of the text.

Paul then says “IF WE deny Him” showing that in that group “WE” that died with Christ, that Live with Christ there are indeed those who will NOT endure – those who will “deny” Him. And when that happens Paul predicts the same “loss” that Christ predicted in Matt 18 “Forgiveness revoked”.

 

[J. Jump]

I have reading posts argue between Bob and J.J. about 'deny Christ'.

I would like to show you a good passage does matter with the issue of deny Christ.

Matthew 19:16-30 talking about the rich man came and asked Christ, what he shall do to have eternal life.

Verse 16 - "And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have ETERNAL LIFE?"

The rich man doesn't ask Christ what he shall do to have millennial life. Because, millennial teaching was not find anywhere in the Old Testament books during Christ's time.

Rich man understoods 'eternal life' simple means there shall be everlasting life beyond death which is speak of future final destiny.

Verse 17 - "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."

Then, man asked Christ of verse 18-

"He saith unto Him, 'Which'?' He asked Christ, wanted to know which one of the commandments, that he ought to do.

Then, Christ asnwered to him; verse 18b, 19-

"Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, honour thy father and thy mother: and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Man asked Christ of verse 20 -

"All these things have I kept from y youth up: what lack I yet?"

Man told Christ, that he did keep the commandments in his youth, but he wanted to know what thing he misses of the commandment.

Then, Christ said to him of verse 21-

"If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: COME AND FOLLOW ME."

Christ told him, if he desires to be growing or being maturing, then he would go and to sell his things to the poors, so shall have rich blessings from above, and come and to FOLLOW Christ.

Christ already know that man was a wealthy have everything and his possession. He tested man's heart & his faith. Understand, Christ is omniscience means, he already know everything before things to be happened, like as before the rich man came and ask Him.

Then next verse 22-

"But when the young man heard that saying, he WENT AWAY sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

The rich man heard Christ's words, he was bitter and refuse to give up his possessions, because he do not have FAITH in Christ, he worried over his own earthy things.

Then, Christ said to disciples - verse 23-24

"Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall HARDLY enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Christ used two characters- rich man & camel. Christ knows camel's character, it is humble, easily to obey and patience all the times, no complain. Camels are in Middle East, carrying heavy load on their back, walking long journey over the desert. Camel refuses to stop or being complain for being carrying heavy load on its back during long journey in the desert during hot weather. Christ uses rich man's character, shows that he is pride, always complain over small things, easy worry over them, have no faith in God, also, being be selfish all the times.

Matt. 19:16-30 teaching us, that we must deny our own life, and come to follow Christ with faith, then shall have eternal life. This passage is a matter with eternal salvation & conditional.

I urge you to read whole context of Matthew 16:16-30, so, you will understand what Christ was talking about.

Also, Christ told his disciples, they have to forsake family, things, yield up their life, and come to follow Christ. Or, if any refuse to deny life, then cannot be Christ's disciple. That mean, if any person deny Christ(refuse come and to follow Christ) then cannot have eternal life!!!!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Such a long post and you do nothing but show your misunderstanding of Scripture. Again like I said in another post you need to quit relying on the translations of man and go back to the original language and see what the word was.

Again the word was aionios, which most often means age-lasting. There are actually very, very few times that it is used as eternal in a particular context.

This is not one of them. And the way that we can know that is by the question that was asked. The question was what shall I do. Scripture clearly tells us that eternal salvation is not based on what I do, but rather on what Christ has done for me!

Context, Context, Context!

 

[J. Jump]

Indeed - "deny Christ and go to heaven anyway" is not in scripture.

"Deny Christ at get millennial life anyway" is not in scripture.

Exactly correct. Deny Christ and go to heaven anyway is not in Scripture, because mankind's eternal destiny is not heaven. Very little time will be spent in heaven.

And you are right on the button in the second statement. If you deny Christ you will not receive millenial life.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok so "deny Christ" and no millennial life.

"Deny Christ" and no eternal life.

Hmmm - you are starting to see the light! Can that really be JJ???

 

[BobRyan]

DeafPostTrib
Also, Christ told his disciples, they have to forsake family, things, yield up their life, and come to follow Christ. Or, if any refuse to deny life, then cannot be Christ's disciple. That mean, if any person deny Christ(refuse come and to follow Christ) then cannot have eternal life!!!!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Well said !

 

[J. Jump]

Ok so "deny Christ" and no millennial life.

Yes...that's what the Bible says.

"Deny Christ" and no eternal life.

No...the Bible says deny Christ and He will deny you. It doesn't say He will take away your eternal life. There is no Scripture that I have found that says eternal life is forfeitable or any example of it being taken away.