How to salvage OSAS in view of Rom 11 and 2Tim2

[BobRyan]

Therefore the “loss of salvation” is seen whenever that state of salvation is explicitly seen to be revoked, when our acceptance and peace with God is denied by God.

#1. Turned over to Satan 1 Tim 1
#2. A certain terrifying expectation of Judgment to come – Heb 10
#3. Forgiveness revoked Matt 18 – old massive debt is now put back on us.
#4. Christ denying us 2Tim 2
#5. The shipwreck of faith 1 Tim 1
#6. Impossible to be renewed again having been partakers of the Holy Spirit Heb 6
Bound up to be burned – John 15, Heb 6
#7. Enslaved to sin again – as a dog that returns to its vomit



Turned over to Satan – in the shipwreck of faith

1Tim 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them[/b] you fight the good fight,
19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be [b]taught not to blaspheme.

Denied by Christ instead of His “confessing us before God and His angels” –


[quote]2 Tim 2[/b]
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure, we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/B] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/B]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
[/quote]

Soul bound by sin and under the condemnation of death

James 5

19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back[/b], let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Forgiveness revoked –

Matt 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

Matt 18 <[

b]Forgiveness Revoked!>

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5

Gal 5

4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come

Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[BobRyan]

So let's say for the sake of argument that there is a text that really does not fit OSAS (like the texts above).

The easy solution is "gloss over the details that don't fit OSAS whenever speaking to those texts".

And that trick could also be tried with this text.

Fallen and yet hoping to be “grafted BACK in again” into the vine of Christ!

Rom 11

18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Notice that "being grafted BACK IN AGAIN" is the result for those who were cast OUT - but then they did not CONTINUE in "unbelief".

How "instructive".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

Therefore the “loss of salvation” is seen whenever that state of salvation is explicitly seen to be revoked, when our acceptance and peace with God is denied by God.

To bad none of your texts deal with eternal salvation. Why do you keep trying to lead people astray? Again when you start letting the Bible speak for the Bible instead of Bob speaking for the Bible some of these things will start to make sense.

Again hopefully people are tossed to and fro by your false doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

Too bad your approach is to dismiss scripture instead of SHOWING that your wild ideas could be "Supported" in these scriptures that debunk OSAS.

 

[BobRyan]

To understand that OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is error not taught in scripture we must first see what the Bible defines as “salvation” condition for the saints.

I consider that the Bible definition of one who is saved is the following.

#1. Reconciled to Christ - in fellowship with Christ.
#2. At peace with God in the light of His grace to us. (Rom 5:1
#3. Forgiven of sins (1John 1:9)
#4. Christ as our Mediator confessing us as His own before the courts of heaven. (1John 2:1)
#5. Faith that is alive and growing James 2:14-27, Heb 11:1-4
#6. Partaking of the Holy Spirit and the heavenly blessings of the age to come.
#7. Freedom from slavery to sin - escape from the tyranny of being forced to sin.
Walking in the Spirit and putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Walking as Christ walked rather than lying about our relationship to Christ.
(1John 2:2-5, Romans 8:3-9, Romans 6 all, Romans 2 all)


Yet all this is still WITH the sinful nature such that we in fact may sin - but will always find in Christ "A mediator with the Father" 1John 2:1 rather than the loss of salvation.

These are the basics in my view of salvation.


Saved walk “Contrasted” to the enslaved-to-sin walk defined in Romans 2

Rom 2
7 to those who [b]by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; [/b]
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and [b]do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. [/B]
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and [b]peace to everyone who does good[/b], to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 8

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin[/b], He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

Rom 2

:16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
…
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Therefore the “loss of salvation” is seen whenever that state of salvation is explicitly seen to be revoked, when our acceptance and peace with God is denied by God.

#1. Turned over to Satan 1 Tim 1
#2. A certain terrifying expectation of Judgment to come – Heb 10
#3. Forgiveness revoked Matt 18 – old massive debt is now put back on us.
#4. Christ denying us 2Tim 2
#5. The shipwreck of faith 1 Tim 1
#6. Impossible to be renewed again having been partakers of the Holy Spirit Heb 6
Bound up to be burned – John 15, Heb 6
#7. Enslaved to sin again – as a dog that returns to its vomit

 

[BobRyan]

The bottom line is that if you don't understand the Gospel or what it means to be saved then you look at texts that speak of "being denied by Christ" and "Falling from Grace" as ---" Yeah that is what salvation is all about -- no problems for me there" instead of seeing the warning for what it really is --

That is the cry of "peace and safety" when the Bible says "Denied by Christ" and "removed from the vine of Christ" and "fallen from Grace" and "withered and cast into the fire to be burned" and "forgiveness revoked".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

Too bad your approach is to dismiss scripture instead of SHOWING that your wild ideas could be "Supported" in these scriptures that debunk OSAS.

That is a flat out lie. You have made it quite a practice to lie about others in this message board, so are you really saved? Because you haven't shown any repentance and you certainly haven't apologized for your errors. So are you really saved right now? Or is lying really not a bad enough sin?

Bob it doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same ole jargon it's not going to make your claims true. You can type those same Scriptures out a 1,000 times a 1,000 times and it still won't mean what "you" want it to mean.

Those Scriptures are not speaking of eternal salvation. You are inserting that context into them when it is not there. That has been explained to you and it has been shown to you. You just don't accept it. So instead of lying and saying nothing has been shown, just tell the truth and say I and others have shown you what we believe and how we believe as it is consistent with the Bible and you just don't like what we have said. That's the truth of the matter.

 

[J. Jump]

So confession or denial on the part of Christ is based upon a person's works not whether or not they are saved or lost. That judgment happens while a person is still alive. After you die or as a Christian are raptured the only thing that will be judged is works.

G12 sorry I missed your post. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

Confession or denial can be verbal. But it is more clearly understood in regard to works, because one can claim that Christ is Lord of their life, but if they do not have the consistent works to back that up then they are in fact lying and are actually denying Christ.

To be Lord means to be Master. And if someone else is your Master then you are going to be about Their work. If you are about Their work then you are in fact confessing by your works that Christ is the Lord of your life.

If however you are doing your own thing and have your own agenda you are saying by your works or lack of God ordained works that Christ is not Lord of your life, but rather you are you own master.

You can certainly claim that Christ is not Lord verbally, but it will be apparant that that is what you believe because your works will indicate it.

If a person says Christ is the Lord of my life then check out the works and see if they are telling the truth. But it has nothing to do with their acceptance of Jesus as Savior and does not impact their eternal destiny.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[BobRyan]

Fallen and yet hoping to be “grafted BACK in again” into the vine of Christ!

Quote:
Rom 11
Quote:
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?



Notice that "being grafted BACK IN AGAIN" is the result for those who were cast OUT - but then they did not CONTINUE in "unbelief".

(Just "so much scripture to be ignored" if you really prefer man made tradition to the Bible)

 

[J. Jump]

As has been said before Bob it doesn't matter how many times you type it out it doesn't make it the way BobRyan says. But you keep cutting and pasting if it makes you feel better :laugh:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J.

Do you actual understand Romans 11:18-24, what it is talking about?

This passage is a matter on salvation. It is much same with John chapter 15 on 'Vine' as Christ.

It is clear teaching us, if we do not endure, faithful, and abide for Christ, then we would be cut off. But, then later if anyone of us who are already backslidding, decide to repent back to the Lord again, then 'graft back again'. Mean to be alive again same with the parable of Luke 15:11-32 about the lost son.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

Do you actual understand Romans 11:18-24, what it is talking about?

I would ask you the same question, but by your post it shows you clearly do not have an understanding.

Eternal salvation is without the works of man. That's where the Bible puts the period, so that's where the discussion ends. It doesn't matter if you and BobRyan have convinced yourself otherwise then so be it, but your beliefs are contrary to Scripture teaching!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J.

Obivous, you seem not admit to answer Bob and me of questions. Bob and I both agree with Romans 11:18-24 clearly. We follow it. It does matter with salvation issue.

Do you agree with Romans 11:18-24?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

Obivous, you seem not admit to answer Bob and me of questions.

Bob has been shown numerous times that his views of conditional eternal salvation are false. So you can go back through the pages and read the answers to the questions if you like.

Plain teaching of Scripture is that eternal salvation is a one-time event in a person's life, and the subject is never to be dealt with again. It is based on the works of Another on the person's behalf and there is nothing that person can do to get saved, to stay saved or to show his salvation.

If you don't want to believe Scripture that is on you.

[qutoe]We follow it.[/quote]

You follow man-made traditional teachings, which are in direct violation of Scripture.

It does matter with salvation issue.

No it doesn't. but you stand by your faith.

That gives you the context right there. They were continuing in their faith. That is not eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is not a continual action, but a one-time event in a person's life as Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 tell us.

Edit: By the way I absolutely agree with Romans 11. I believe in the entire book of Romans and the entire God ordained Scriptures.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J.

Right now, I do not have enough time to make post, I have go to work 3rd shift tonight. I will reply to you tomorrow. Tomorrow night is my off from work.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

JJ said
Bob has been shown numerous times that his views of conditional eternal salvation are false.

Wrong.

Obviously.

You do not "show anything" you simply repeatedly claim "you can't see".

But that does not "show" anything about the texts that have been shown to totally debunk your man made tradition. To SHOW something you would have needed to exegete these texts.

Clearly - you avoid that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Rom 11
Quote:
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?



Notice that "being grafted BACK IN AGAIN" is the result for those who were cast OUT - but then they did not CONTINUE in "unbelief".

If "NOT" continuing in "unblief" is in fact "belief" - (and we see this in Romans 10 clearly) and "results in salvation" then being grafted BACK IN to the vine of Christ is not just "another way to be LOST"!

This is so obvious - so blatant - so clear - so impossible to refute that the only way to object is with the same text-less fact-less posts seen in some cases here where the person is shown to "cling to their traditions anyway" rather than exegeting the text and showing their tradition to have been supported in the text.

FURTHER - the example Christ gives of branches in John 15 that are IN Christ but are then NOT bearing fruit -- is one where HE SHOWS them to be then be cast out - wither and DIE and tossed into FIRE!

This picture is IMPOSSIBLE to gloss over! Impossible to MISS! Impossible to "pretend" that this is what it means to be SAVED!

How can honest Christians not see this as clear as day??

How can anyone not see the "failed argument" made against John 15 and Romans 11 (And Matt 18 on the previous page) where they DO NOT even remotely attempt to exegeted the texts that debunk OSAS?

Surely someone has got to be thinking about this?!!

 

[J. Jump]

Wrong.

Obviously.

You do not "show anything" you simply repeatedly claim "you can't see".

Okay if I don't show anything as you so wrongly imply please tell me what this was several pages back? And Bob I don't believe I have ever said that you can't see. If I have please show me and I will eat crow. But you are clearly choosing not to see!! And again what you do is just cut and paste your "proof" text that does nothing for your claim and then just acts as if you are right, because you pasted some Scripture into a post.

Sorry it doesn't work that way. You don't just get to cherry pick a passage here and there you have to take the whole counsel of God. And your cherry picked verses do not even agree with your claim anyway.

For those that are wondering about II Timothy 2 the context is not eternal salvation. We must keep passages in context in order that we do not destroy the original intent of the passage.

10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
Paul was writing in regard to people that were already in possession of eternal salvation. Once a person is saved that issue is never brought up again.

If these people already possessed eternal salvation (which they did) then what is the salvation to which they needed to obtain? Obtaining salvation has to do with one getting salvation not receiving salvation. Another hint that eternal salvation is not in question because eternal salvation is a free gift of God and must be received.

This salvation when comparing Scripture with Scripture is the salvation of the soul, which is a salvation that must be obtained. And with the salvation of the soul comes eternal [age-lasting] glory, which has to do with rulership.

The word eternal should be translated age-lasting. It is the Greek word aionios, which is an adjective of the Greek word aion which means age. An age is a period of time that has a beginning and an end.

The age that is in view here is the age to come, which is the mellinial kingdom where Christ will rule the earth as King of kings and Lord of lords and His bride will rule with Him from the heavens and His brother Israel will rule as the head of the nations with Him from the earth.

If we endure, we will also reign with Him

Again endurance has to do with ones works, which means eternal salvation is not in view, because eternal salvation is by grace based on Christ's works for the individual and not the individuals works.

Reigning with Him is tied to His coming 1,000-year kingdom. If we endure we will reign with Him. If we do not endure then we will not.

If we deny Him, He also will deny us
Again eternal salvation is not in question. A place in His coming kingdom is. If we deny Christ then He will deny us in front of the Father and the angels at the judgment seat of Christ and we will be denied a position in His kingdom.

Denying Christ can mean verbally, but it is equally if not more connected with our works. If we do not walk in the Spirit and deny the flesh and all of those things that a Christian needs to do (confess sins, repent, etc.) then we are denying Christ with our actions.

Bottom line eternal salavtion is not the context of the passage and so therefore those that use this passage to try to say that one can lose their eternal salvation are destroying the context of the passage.

 

[BobRyan]

JJ

If we deny Him, He also will deny us
Again eternal salvation is not in question.

Here is a concept to really grasp JJ. Simply quoting a snippet as you do and saying "it does not really mean that" is NOT exegesis. You are simply reviewing the reasons why you DON't like what the text is saying.

It is obvious to ALL that "HE will DENY US" is NOT another synonym for "Salvation is not being placed at risk here".

How can you think that simply SAYING such a thing would be accepted as a definition for "HE will DENY us"???

You say "Deny Christ can mean.. but also could mean..." but you do not show that "salvation" is EVER stated as "Christ DENYING you".

Not one single text says "Denied by Christ but saved ANYWAY" as you do.

And the text of 2 Tim 2 DOES make claims to the GOSPEL context of this statement by REPEATEDLY pointing out the Gospel subject of the chapter so that BEING DENIED is in the context of the Gospel itself!

 

[J. Jump]

Bob you are doing the exact same thing. You are taking a passage of Scripture and then saying this is what it means. And then you speak ill of me because I do the same thing.

Just because you type in a passage of Scripture and then say this is what it means, does not make it so. You are not the almighty when it comes to Scripture interpretation, as you think you are.

It is obvious to ALL that "HE will DENY US" is NOT another synonym for "Salvation is not being placed at risk here".

No it is NOT obvious to ALL, becuase I do not agree that He will deny us has anything to do with eternal salvation. The context is not there to support your argument, but you have shown that you don't care about context as long as a passage fits your preconceived idea.

Not one single text says "Denied by Christ but saved ANYWAY" as you do.

And not one single text says "denied by Christ as to eternal salvation" as you say.

So context has to tell us what the meaning is and works are the context and that means eternal salvation is not because eternal salvation is based ONLY on the works of Another done you the person's behalf. Period. End of discussion. That's what the Bible says. Believe it and live. Don't believe and continue in your error.

Bob again the gospel simply means good news. It doesn't automatically mean salvation by grace through faith or eternal savlation!